Author Topic: Rolling Scissors (Read 1565 times)

Jekyll · « **on:** April 14, 2001, 07:25:00 AM »

Tonight I had the best fun online for ages.. and it wasnt in the MA.

Grunherz and I did some duelling in 109G2's and G6's in the Duelling Arena. I gotta say that guy is awesome in the 109's... he just blew me away

Here's a film of one of our typical fights. We had to rest after the 4th fight.. both mentally exhausted. It's not a bad example of flying the rolling scissors.... unfortunately.. he flew it better than did I.

<S> Grunherz

Andy Bush · « **Reply #1 on:** April 15, 2001, 06:49:00 PM »

Can you check this film...it keeps crashing my program!

Andy

Jekyll · « **Reply #2 on:** April 16, 2001, 04:13:00 AM »

Checked it.. works fine here Andy. Do you have the Duelling Arena terrain installed on your machine? Missing terrain is the usual cause of film problems.

I'd be particularly interested in your viewpoint if you can get it working.

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Jekyll
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
Aces High Training Corps

Andy Bush · « **Reply #3 on:** April 16, 2001, 06:59:00 AM »

Ahhh...the dueling terrain! My fault...got it working fine now!

Great film!! I'm all tuckered out just watching it!

You two really have a handle on using your views. I just wish I was 1/10th as good. That's quite a nice piece of flying.

Here's why. Most folks don't even understand the concept of the rolling scissors...the maneuver is probably one of the most (if not the most) difficult of all offensive BFMs. Now, add to that the difficulty of using a snap view system in this type of maneuver, and we have a tough nut to crack. And you did a masterful job at it!

Now, if we all only had some instruction on how you did it...say, take just one 'cycle' of the scissors, and break it down into parts. Come up with a 'slideshow' that includes what views you use at each point in the cycle to keep the bandit in sight and at the same time plan your next move.

Not only would this be instructive in view use, but it would be a big help in explaining energy interpretation and management.

Nice job, Jekyll!

Andy

Jekyll · « **Reply #4 on:** April 17, 2001, 04:19:00 AM »

It's funny you mention the view system Andy, because of all the things I can manage to screw up in the rolling scissors, maintaining vis has never been one of them

I suppose, at least for me, one advantage of having snap views mapped to a hat on my joystick is that I can obtain physical feedback of where I am looking at any time. I can 'feel' that my right thumb is forward right, and can therefore translate that to looking forward right. Where I do sometimes have problems with views is when I'm combining 'up' with 'side' views. My straight up, lift vector, view is mapped to a button on my throttle, activated by my left thumb. My right thumb controls my side views.

I'm working on a series of still shots from the film, as you suggested, but its fairly slow work. Even so, I don't know that a slideshow would really help very much. It's not like you can say, "well we start with forward view, then forward up, then forward up/left etc". Following Grunherz though those maneuvers meant I was really buzzing from one view to another: sometimes holding him in two different views at once and bouncing between the two in order to get a better idea of his angular relationship to my plane. I should think that the old "aircraft on sticks' would be a much easier way of describing the rolling scissors maneuver as a whole.

In relation to energy management during the maneuver, my sole thought is usually to fly lag pursuit unless I am fairly sure I can get a snapshot by going into lead for a short (very short) period of time. Other than when going for a shot, I'm always aiming to have my lift vector placed somewhere behind the other aircraft, in order to avoid a potentially fatal overshoot. Dunno if that's how it's taught in the 'real' Air Force, but it seems to work reasonably well for me

And Andy, if you thought it was exhausting watching it, I gotta tell you that that film was of just one of five consecutive flights which each dissolved into similar rolling scissors after the first couple of turns. Admittedly, the film was of the longest flight, but it wasn't the longest by much. By the end of the 3rd such rolling scissors epic my hands were literally shaking on the stick, and I could feel my heart thumping in my chest.

I don't like to lose

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Jekyll
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
Aces High Training Corps

[This message has been edited by Jekyll (edited 04-17-2001).]

Andy Bush · « **Reply #5 on:** April 17, 2001, 07:01:00 AM »

Jekyll

'Slideshow' was a poor choice of words on my part. You have it right...a series of individual shots that explain the view selection process as the maneuver unfolds.

>>Other than when going for a shot, I'm always aiming to have my lift vector placed somewhere behind the other aircraft, in order to avoid a potentially fatal overshoot.<<

Excellent point. That's a major decision in the rolling scissors, because once you commit the nose to a snapshot gun attack, you tend to lose the energy fight that is really what the scissors is all about.

I'm looking forward to your article.

Andy

Andy Bush · « **Reply #6 on:** April 17, 2001, 07:08:00 AM »

One last comment on your excellent post...

>>Where I do sometimes have problems with views is when I'm combining 'up' with 'side' views.<<

Exactly. Whenever I have discussed the limitations of using snap views, this is item #1! It is precisely the problem of being able to see where the 'up' is (the lift vector...where you want to go) as compared to retaining a look at where the bandit is (since where the bandit is determines where the 'up' view should be aimed).

I suspect this becomes sort of a Catch 22 for many players...kind of a 'you can't get there from here' thing. Clearly, you have mastered this well. I'm not sure too many others have.

Which is why we all need something like the article you are working on.

Andy

Jekyll · « **Reply #7 on:** April 17, 2001, 07:28:00 AM »

Tell ya what I'll do Andy. I'll put together what I can about the rolling scissors and email it to you.

I'm hardly in your league when it comes to explaining BFM. Perhaps you can take a look at it for me when I've completed it and 're-assemble' it the way it should be

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Jekyll
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
Aces High Training Corps

Andy Bush · « **Reply #8 on:** April 17, 2001, 12:43:00 PM »

Jekyll

I'll be happy to!

Andy

Shamus · « **Reply #9 on:** April 18, 2001, 08:54:00 AM »

Masterful, both of you!! Im gonna watch this one over and over. The patience exibited is awsome, I think I have figured out why I run out of e so often when I scissors

now if I can only put it into practice

Shamus

Lephturn · « **Reply #10 on:** April 18, 2001, 03:33:00 PM »

You should be aware, that a rolling scissors will tend to favour the plane with better sustained turning abilities, better low speed acceleration, and better low speed handling. It's a great move if you are in a good turnfighter, but a BAD move if you are flying a Jug.

The other issue is that in a rolling scissors (horizontal) the advantage will shift to whoever is on the diving part of the scissors. Beware... this means that if you get a shot on the downward part and miss, chances are the other guy WILL have a shot when he comes down. Part of the trick is to keep scissoring until you have a really good shot, because if you go for a shot too early and miss, the time you take to shoot gives the other guy an advantage.

One thing that I do that kills me in a rolling scissors is to keep my lift vector on him too much. This is REALLY hard to do, but basically you have to try to make your climb oscillations as wide as you can. If you roll back to follow him too quickly you end up not rolling very much and your barrel roll is pretty tight. Since his flight path will be much longer in this case... you will lose.

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Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer

A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com

Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH articles and training info!

easymo · « **Reply #11 on:** April 19, 2001, 02:17:00 AM »

Just a suggestion. You might turn off CT. That plane is very agile.

Jekyll · « **Reply #12 on:** April 23, 2001, 04:52:00 AM »

Finally found what I was looking for

Post by easymo in 'another place'

Quote

If you dont think CT gives you an edge. You dont know how to use it.

I've tested just about all of the AH aircraft both with and without combat trim. For aircraft like the 190 series, the differences between the two are minimal, except at high speed. The 109 series however, are a completely different ball of wax.

In MY opinion, for what it's worth, the 109s are greatly benefitted by the use of combat trim, particularly when often transitioning between high & low speed flight such as occurs in a rolling scissors.

Personally, I wish we had no bloody trim functions at all, other than those that the real aircraft had. No rudder trim adjustments for the 109 etc.

But flying a plane without using all its HTC-given benefits is like flying a P51 while only using 75% thrust, or limiting yourself to only 3g turns in a Zeke.

I never flew Warbirds ezmode, because I understood that it gave markedly inferior performance when compared with 'real mode'.

What was your analysis of 'real'-v-'ezmode' easymo?

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Jekyll
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
Aces High Training Corps

Sancho · « **Reply #13 on:** April 29, 2001, 09:53:00 AM »

Leph, you don't like the jug for rolling scissors??

That move saves my bellybutton 9 times out of 10, the 10th time being when Ripsnot is on my six in DHog. <finger>

Lephturn · « **Reply #14 on:** April 29, 2001, 10:42:00 AM »

Not a true rolling scissors no. A high speed one, especially a diving one, and yeah I can do well. But in a horizontal rolling scissors, the guy with the best sustained turn capability at low speed is gonna get you all things being equal. That's not an area where the Jug accels.

However, one thing the jug can do is slow down fast.

A rolling scissors will slow a Jug really quickly, and sometimes you can suck the other guy into an overshoot that way. A 0G shallow dive to build speed, and then a hard rolling scissors can make many planes overshoot, but if the other guy is smart enough to hang out in lag for a few rolls, the Jug will burn it's E and be a sitting duck.

The other reason I stay away from them is that it is very hard for me to execute them properly. I tend to roll my lift vector on the bogey too early and fly a straighter course with more roll, and that will get you killed in a rolling scissors. Since that type of move doesn't favour the Jug anyway, I just avoid the situation if I can.

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Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer

A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com

Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH articles and training info!