Author Topic: Lazs will like this - even though it's a wall-o-text  (Read 1583 times)

Offline Chortle

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Lazs will like this - even though it's a wall-o-text
« Reply #45 on: December 10, 2004, 03:12:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by rshubert
How is government going to disarm the criminals?  By making it illegal to own a gun.  What a laugh.  If a person is willing to hurt or kill another (a very serious crime), then the fact that the tool is illegal is not going to be important.  Criminals break laws.  That's why they're called criminals.

And expecting the police to intervene in your behalf is another silly idea.  For that to work, you would need a police escort 24/7.

The only real effect of gun prohibition is to prevent law abiding citizens (or subjects) from protecting themselves with the most efficient tool--a firearm.



shubie
No **** Sherlock, you ever wondered how easier it is to shoot someone to death rather than knife them?

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #46 on: December 10, 2004, 04:03:48 PM »
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Originally posted by lazs2
The book is interesting.   It is indeed opinionated but it does seem like the british experiance has been one of slow incramenatlism taking away basic rights that were once common.  Most of the things done to the brits are the things that gun control/gun ban crowd here advocates.   For those of us who believe in the basic  human right and duty to protect themselves and others.... it is chilling.
Two things stood out from that book. 1) Joyce Lee Malcolm has never lived here for any length of time, and therefore knows bugger all about the British way of life. 2) Research done about earlier centuries started out with a preconceived outcome with regard to the agenda it seeks to fulfil.

Hey Chortle! SE London? I thought you lived in Hornchurch - maybe that's Overlag. We seem to have a few Essex Boys, but you sound like a Kent Boy. Are you anywhere near Catford/Lewisham?

Offline Chortle

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« Reply #47 on: December 10, 2004, 04:28:04 PM »
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Originally posted by beet1e
Two things stood out from that book. 1) Joyce Lee Malcolm has never lived here for any length of time, and therefore knows bugger all about the British way of life. 2) Research done about earlier centuries started out with a preconceived outcome with regard to the agenda it seeks to fulfil.

Hey Chortle! SE London? I thought you lived in Hornchurch - maybe that's Overlag. We seem to have a few Essex Boys, but you sound like a Kent Boy. Are you anywhere near Catford/Lewisham?


I live in Peckham SE15 under the guise of Chortle, nee Trikky, forever under the shame of a previous incarntation. I still know what I'm talking about though....Dont mention  my either name to 9 GIAP

Offline straffo

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« Reply #48 on: December 10, 2004, 04:41:52 PM »
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Originally posted by Chortle
I live in Peckham SE15 under the guise of Chortle, nee Trikky, forever under the shame of a previous incarntation. I still know what I'm talking about though....Dont mention  my either name to 9 GIAP


It's still fariz@warrior... ?

How much are your ready to pay for my silence ? :p

I wondered what you had become ,glad to see you're still on board :)

Offline Chortle

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« Reply #49 on: December 10, 2004, 05:00:26 PM »
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Originally posted by straffo
It's still fariz@warrior... ?

How much are your ready to pay for my silence ? :p

I wondered what you had become ,glad to see you're still on board :)
Oh crap, about £2.50, thats about $500 or somewhat less Euro speaking ;)

**** man, you were part of Abbeville Kids?

PS I think Fariz could probably kick everyones arse ;)

Offline straffo

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« Reply #50 on: December 10, 2004, 05:10:19 PM »
I'm still an Abbeville kid :)
Even if the squad changed name the spirit is still the same ...

Concerning Fariz last night I've seen he was ranked #1
I guess he still suck :D

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #51 on: December 10, 2004, 06:19:07 PM »
Thanks Beetle and Lazs. I assumed it was from her book, turns out it was from one of her articles, Gun Control's Twisted Outcome. It's widely available on the web.

This is what Lee Malcolm says:

Quote
That willingness was further undermined by a broad revision of criminal law in 1967 that altered the legal standard for self-defense. Now everything turns on what seems to be “reasonable” force against an assailant, considered after the fact. As Glanville Williams notes in his Textbook of Criminal Law, that requirement is “now stated in such mitigated terms as to cast doubt on whether it [self-defense] still forms part of the law."


According to this site:
http://cgi.cse.unsw.edu.au/~lambert/cgi-bin/blog/guns/UK/gullible4.html

this is whatGlanville Williams actually says:

Quote
The requirement of reasonableness is unhappy. Enough has been said in criticism of it, and the CLRC has recommended that it should be expunged from the law. In practice, as we have seen, the requirement may be construed indulgently to the defendant, for, as Holmes J memorably said in the United States Supreme Court, “detached reflection cannot be demanded in the presence of an uplifted knife.” As we shall see in the next section, the requirement is now stated in such mitigated terms as to cast doubt on whether it still forms part of the law.


So Lee Malcolm cites Glanville Williams as an authority on the law, claiming he says there is doubt wether self defence is still part of the law. What Glanville Williams actually says is there is doubt wether "reasonableness" is still a requirement for the self defence case. In other words, that self defence is easier to justify in law. The exact opposite of what Malcolm claims he's saying.

It doesn't fill me with much confidence in Malcolm's opinions. Either she's deliberately lying, or in her desire to read what she wants to read, she's misunderstood something that's quite simple.

The site that pointed out the error also has some usefull stuff on self defence in the UK if anyone's interested.

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #52 on: December 10, 2004, 07:10:28 PM »
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Originally posted by lazs2
thrawn.. I see no such FBI stat that says that any weapon other than a firearm is better for home defense than a firearm.   Can you point me to it?    I do not believe that burglars knowing you might have a cricket paddle or nine iron is as much of a deterent as them thinking you might have a gun.... I can't imagine the idiot burglar who would face a gun with less fear than a rolled up newspaper say.



'Florida State University criminologist, Gary Kleck, analyzed data from the Department of Justice's National Crime Victimization Survey (1992-1998). Describing his findings on defensive gun use, in Armed: New Perspectives on Gun Control, New York:Prometheus Books (2001), Kleck writes:

"In general, self-protection measures of all types are effective, in the sense of reducing the risk of property loss in robberies and confrontational burglaries, compared to doing nothing or cooperating with the offender. The most effective form of self-protection is use of a gun. For robbery the self-protection meaures with the lowest loss rates were among victims attacking the offender with a gun, and victims threatenting the offender with a gun. For confrontational burglarly, attacking with a gun had the second lowest loss rate of sixteen self-protection measures, bested only by another mode of armed self-protection, threatening the offender with a nongun weapon." (p. 291)

"[W]hile defensive gun use is generally safe, it does not appear to be uniquely safe among self-protection methods as data from earlier NCVS data suggested. Nevertheless, there does not appear to be any increase in injury risk due to defensive gun use that counterbalances its greater effectiveness in avoiding property loss." (p. 292)'

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #53 on: December 10, 2004, 10:36:49 PM »
thrawn... I think I would have to have Kleck explain that one.   I can not imagine any non firearm weapon that would be more successful against a burglar or why.   If the gun came in second then I would like to see the data.   I would like to see what types of people were involved.   It could simply mean that more burglars are confronted with non firearms weapons and frieghtened off...  this would seem likely... you use what you have handy and that is most likely not a gun for most people.

In any case...  I would like his defenistion of "loss rates"  does he mean people killed defending their homes or loss of property?   I can't imagine anyone being better with a knife or bat than with a gun tho no matter what.  

What you show of the study makes no sense.   How did guns stack up against say... knives?  bats?  rolled up newspaper?   sling shots?   lamps?  This is not a silly question... beetle was asking about tasers... a non gun... you are implying that any non gun will be more effective against a burglar than any gun in any persons hands.   complete nonsense.    

pluss he says this... ""[W]hile defensive gun use is generally safe, it does not appear to be uniquely safe among self-protection methods as data from earlier NCVS data suggested. Nevertheless, there does not appear to be any increase in injury risk due to defensive gun use that counterbalances its greater effectiveness in avoiding property loss." (p. 292)'"

huh?   using the gun does not cause any injury risk that that would counterbalance its "greater effectiveness in avoiding property loss"   greater than what?  greater than not having one it would appear... it would appear that he is saying that you are a lot better off with a gun.   and that I would agree with.   if there is no increased risk then why is it not effective?  run out of bullets and then the guy still robs you and tells you how unhappy he was that you shot at him?  

lazs
« Last Edit: December 10, 2004, 10:46:04 PM by lazs2 »

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #54 on: December 10, 2004, 11:26:26 PM »
I'll try and find more info on the basis of his findings.  Hopefully there is more on the net and not just in his book.  For what it's worth, Dr. Kleck is pro gun.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #55 on: December 11, 2004, 09:36:46 AM »
I am aware of Klecks work.  I know he is not only pro gun but pro data in the vein of Lott and others.   I think that it is a good trend that so many are looking at the data and not making it up these days...

I think the days of the anti gun groups putting commercials on TV that say a child is murdered buy a gun in America every 28 seconds are about over thankfully.    These guys are being called on such nonsensical claims.  

lazs

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #56 on: December 11, 2004, 11:24:53 AM »
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Originally posted by lazs2
I think that it is a good trend that so many are looking at the data and not making it up these days...
Any chance of you following this trend? ;)

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #57 on: December 13, 2004, 09:03:52 AM »
hey I allready admitted that saying that I thought we had about 300 million people was wrong when you confronted me with the earth shattering truth that we only had a little more than 295 million ...

I also admited that I took some data from the sleazest lieing nes service around (the BBC) that was talking ahbout a country they couldn't possibly know anything about (england) and took em at their word.... ah well... fool me once..

lazs

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #58 on: December 13, 2004, 10:46:53 AM »
It's OK, Lazs - just giving your pot a good stir. :D