see this move alot...help

[rarara]

Enemy at my 10 oclock, approximately coalt at 10k; Now he dives and loops up to be on my six; Usually whatever I do leaves me at a disadvantage. I'm usually in a spit. What do I do?

[Soda]

It depends on a lot of factors including:
1) how long you have until merge
2) how much energy you are carrying
3) what type of plane he is flying

These are just a few issues that would help clarify what might be a good maneuver to try.  Generally though, in a Spit with someone at your 10 o'clock, as long as he doesn't have a major E (energy) advantage on you, you should be in ok shape as long as you have a small amount of time to work with before the merge.

Could you give more info?

-Soda

[Jekyll]

Sounds like he's just doing a lead turn in the vertical.

Rarara, all aircraft need space in which to move.  If you do a flat turn, a Spit IX needs about 700 feet in which to complete that turn.  That's called the turn radius.

Now turn radius works equally well in the vertical plane as it does in the horizontal.  So what the other guy is doing is probably this:

He sees you coalt in his frontal aspect and turns to meet you headon.  He dives, which builds up his speed and gives him that 700 feet of turning room, only this time its 700 feet in the vertical plane.  He watches you approach and when you reach about 600yds he commences a half loop which will pop him out nicely on your tail at co-alt.

If you see a guy dive when approaching you, best advice is to match his dive.  This takes away his turning room and builds your own airspeed for the inevitable air combat which will follow.  Just make sure you are flying level when the merge occurs.. you dont want to be 30 degrees nose low when both aircraft pass each other.

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Jekyll
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
Aces High Training Corps

[Montezuma]

 

Originally posted by rarara:
Enemy at my 10 oclock, approximately coalt at 10k; Now he dives and loops up to be on my six; Usually whatever I do leaves me at a disadvantage. I'm usually in a spit. What do I do?

This sounds like the 'lead loop'.

Go here:
 http://www.inter-look.com/rocket/training.html

Read the lectures on 'Mastering the Merge' to understand what is happening.

[rarara]

thx Soda, Jekyll, and Montezuma for your replies. Most helpful. Soda, the eneme usually makes his move at d4, he's off to the side (10oclock), I'm cruising at 280mph and attacker is p51, to answer your reply. Been doing everything but diving to match his dive. I think this will help. Thx again!

[Soda]

D4.0 is lots of time to get the merge how you'd like, especially if he is only at 10o'clock.  I'd do like Jekyll said, dive into the merge with him at your 12 (turn into him to put him infront of you).  280 mph is a good speed for the Spit, much faster and he'll actually be able to out-turn you (his high speed turn is good).  So you should see if you can't fight the battle where he is at the most disadvantage, i.e. slow it down a bit.  9 times in 10 he'll merge and go vertical (either lead turning or long zooming).  Watch what he does and respond accordingly.  At the top of the vertical is where he'll be slow.  The P-51, level and slow, isn't going to out accelerate you or out-turn you in a Spit.  Thus, that's the best place to meet him, so zoom up too if you feel you have the speed to convert into alt to meet him on Co-Alt terms at the top.

If he zooms on a hard pull-up, you can probably zoom similar, meet him at the top, and give him 2 options, dive away and play runstang, or die.

-Soda

[Seahawk]

 

Rarara, all aircraft need space in which to move. If you do a flat turn, a Spit IX needs about 700 feet in which to complete that turn. That's called the turn radius.

Hehe  , jsut same thing what Lem told me  , it is right, just match his dive to spoil his lead turn, and lead turn yourself onto him, if u match his dive and turn into/onto him, it will spoil his maneuver, and puts U in a safe place , for a while  , until you merge again  .
dont try to turn onto him after the lead turn, make him turn onto u and burn some E, "think like a vampire".  
DAMN Lem is great  

thats what i've understood.


Seahawk

[SpitLead]

The first and most important thing is to get him at your 12 0'clock position.  With that you may be able to get some kind of snapshot at the merge.  If you don't, you'll have no shot at all. That's a wasted shot in my book.  At the merge be in a slight dive but not too fast (below 300 mph)and pull up right before he passes you (approx 300d which accounts for the net lag) which should give you a lead turn.

Next, as he passes look behind you to see if he's going vertical (most smart pilots will especially with a boom-n-zoom airplane).  If so, you should match his climb.  Otherwise, your flat turn will burn 'e' and he will now have the altitude advantage.  Do an immelman at the top to keep him in front of you and try to stay at least co-alt.

Another option (though less preferable) is to do a defensive Split-S or continue dive to extend and concede the altitude and hope you can drag him down to low altitude and get him to bleed his 'e' (greedy pilots - and most of us are, will do this).

Important, if you're not at LEAST co-altitude it would be best to disengage and return when you are.  More than once I've been been on the loosing end when at an altitude disadvantage.

[humble]

rarara....couple comments to add to this.

you can tell alot about the skill level of the other pilot during that 4k.

If he flys at you thats good...if he goes for the "under" or lower position thats bad...if he moves to one side and under...creating both vertical and horizontal seperation thats real bad.

If he's nose down thru the merge thats good...if he's level to nose up at the merge thats bad....if he's actually driving up thru your path thats real bad...now if he's "twisting" in from low and to one side and zooming up thru your path thats VERY bad.

The real key's been mentioned...get nose to nose and mirror his approach...then react to what you see. The better his approach tactics the more likely you should push the nose down and take the fight down to the weeds.

[Seahawk]

 

Originally posted by SpitLead:
The first and most important thing is to get him at your 12 0'clock position. With that you may be able to get some kind of snapshot at the merge.

What for?? for a HO shot?? IMO fastest thing to get a kill/to be killed.
(sorry if I understood wronge)


Seahawk

[SpitLead]

Seahawk, the intent there is not to necessarily go for the HO but at least to have him directly in front of you for best SA and have the ability to track him and get a snapshot if the opening presents itself.  That's all I was trying to get across.  If your guns are not pointed at him then you are right away at a disadvantage...

[Lephturn]

You get to his 12 position so that you can minimize separation at the merge.  A better turning aircraft will use any separation at the merge for a lead turn, so you want to minimize that by passing as close as possible at the merge.

That doesn't mean you get shot in the HO.  They are very easy to avoid.  Check out this article I wrote about it:  http://lephturn.webhop.net/hodefense.htm

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Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer

A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com

Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH articles and training info!