Panzer IV the ultimate ground to air weapon?

[Citabria]

The Panzer IV has 5330 kills and has been killed 4557 times.

The Panzer IV has 231 kills and has been killed 70 times against the P-51D.


 The Panzer IV has 302 kills and has been killed 287 times against the Typhoon IB
 

 The Panzer IV has 350 kills and has been killed 828 times against the F4U-1C.
 

 The Panzer IV has 177 kills and has been killed 235 times against the Fw 190A-8.
 
The Panzer IV has 350 kills and has been killed 253 times against the P-38L.

The Panzer IV has 156 kills and has been killed 140 times against the N1K2.

The Panzer IV has 22 kills and has been killed 14 times against the La-5FN.

The Panzer IV has 41 kills and has been killed 4 times against the C-47A.  

The Panzer IV has 87 kills and has been killed 35 times against the C.205.

The Panzer IV has 150 kills and has been killed 131 times against the B-26B.


 The Panzer IV has 78 kills and has been killed 75 times against the B-17G.
 
The M-16 has 3560 kills and has been killed 5832 times.

really why even use an m16 when you have the UBERPANZER?  

[Azrael]

Count quite a number of these kills against mindless fighter drones that smack right into the ground or get blasted by their own bombs or come in at very low alt flying straight into your barrel, just to replane immediately and come back again...

The best tank killer in this game should be a tank.

Az

   
II.(K)/JG2

[funked]

A lot of those (I would guess 60-70%) are AAA kills awarded to the nearest player.

[Pongo]

I would disagree. Most of those kills are made by the panzer..
It has a greatly exagerated ability to engage AC.

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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew

[Azrael]

pongo:
 

It has a greatly exagerated ability to engage AC.

I disagree. As long as the AC driver passes the darwin test he'll live on. Sadly, there are also hordes of kamikaze AC drivers that just have to take off from the nearest field (usually the field where the tanks are engaging) just to jabo the tanks at all costs (e.g. their own virtual life because they dropped the eggs too low or got into compression and smacked 15ft into the ground) or try to strafe them from treetop level, thereby expending themselves to the main gun of the tank. It's somehow the same attack technique used against a bomber, straight 6 approach. Who's guilty here, the tank drivers?

Az

   
II.(K)/JG2

[bloom25]

How did the c47 kill a tank?  



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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS

[Pongo]

Poor form on the part of the pilot does not make a main armement cabable of engaging 2-300mph aircraft. There is no special tecnique that the pilot needs to use to master to be imune to tanks main armement. He is fundimentaly immune. The tank does not have the firecontrol and gunlaying capabilities to track and engage fast air. Period. While a 75mm HE round might hit an 8 inch thick wing or a 1 square meter fuselage and if it did it would certainly destroy it even without effective fusing. The probability is so slim given the rate of travers of the turrent, the rate of fire of the gun, the observation and coordination required to get the plane even in the sight of the tank(which has a phenomonaly narrow field of view. and the balisitics of the gun which will rise and plunge quite dramatically over the range of a shot at an approaching aircraft.
You seem to think that approaching from a predictible and low quaderent is all that is required to make planes easy meat to a tanks MA. Well think of how often in the cluttered real world a tank could put itself into a place where an aircraft could only approach from such a position. Certainly in Falaise and Normandy many AC would have been taken down by the MA of Panzers..10s of thousands of sorties, very restictive terrain. The Tactical Airforces of the allies decimated by the Main Armement fire of the panzers.

I was killed in an F4u1c by a panzer IV at 3.5k crossing at 2-300 mph. A one in a million shot? the numbers posted above say different.
We need not get into a debate about this.
We can aggree to disagree.  

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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew

[JFalk]

this is how I got my kills in a tank, I roll onto an airfield and proceed to take out the Vehicle hanger, next I kill every single plane trying to take off which , it is very easy to do when the plane hasn't started to move.

I also went into a hanger and watched as planes tried to kill me while I was sitting in the enemy hanger, I think I got about 11 kills that way one night with one tank. I also saw people try to plane and taxi the plane to the hanger and try to kill me by going head to head with me while I was in the hanger, 1 guy brought his F4U over 3 times.  I also wonder if they try to damage me but end up hitting their own structure if they take damage?

[JFalk]

a few other points, quite a few of those planes are not meant to be tank killers but people still try to accomplish this with some planes.

Secondly, as far as engaging moving air targets.  If people insist on attacking a tank with a Bf109 or a Spit or a Macchi then they are going to get shot down.  You dont think the US Army trains only to attack ground targets with their tanks? We trained quite a bit at shooting down attack helicopters (and it was pretty easy), something at the time the Soviets had quite a few of (and probally still do).

Now you say, well the planes are much faster.  Sure, but after you do a few passes and bleed of that speed and are still trying to pepper me you dont think I am going to line you up after you pass me and send a round up you tail?  I dont care if you are going 200 mph or 300 mph, if you are flying straight and level after that pass I will have a good shot of knocking you down. I have seen only a few pilots who try to dive bomb me, which is how they should engage me, when they try to do a low level straff, which they like to line up, they are going to get some MG fire from me as they approach along with a round, its very easy to hit a plane that is basically trying to HO you.  Thats the problem, the problem is not that  the panzer is "overmodeled" its that people dont have the patience to set up their attack and also attack with a plane that has no business engaging a tank.

[scout]

Pongo's statements sound like common sense ...
Maybe the answer is in the round modelling.

HT
How large is the 75mm round hitmap ?
How large is the plane hitmap ?

Pongo
 

He is fundimentaly immune. The tank does not have the firecontrol and gunlaying capabilities to track and engage fast air. Period. While a 75mm HE round might hit an 8 inch thick wing or a 1 square meter fuselage and if it did it would certainly destroy it even without effective fusing. The probability is so slim given the rate of travers of the turrent, the rate of fire of the gun, the observation and coordination required to get the plane even in the sight of the tank(which has a phenomonaly narrow field of view. and the balisitics of the gun which will rise and plunge quite dramatically over the range of a shot at an approaching aircraft.

 

I was killed in an F4u1c by a panzer IV at 3.5k crossing at 2-300 mph. A one in a million shot? the numbers posted above say different.

[This message has been edited by scout (edited 04-30-2000).]

[Pongo]

jfalk
The hit area of a hind is about 6 times the hit area of a ww2 tail dragger. from the front the wings are 8 inches deap and the fuselage is what 2 square yards or so...Its speed is nearly twice and the abrams has vastly supperior fire control systems to the Pziv.  The US was also developing a spin guided 120mm round for use against helos..they would have saved there money if it was as easy as here. This panzer would be immune to Hinds other than stand off missle attack.
People make such a big deal about keeping above the max elevation of the the tanks MA..If the panzer was as effecitve as this then they would have upped the elevation to 60Deg. and the air arround the panzer divisions would have been clear to 10000 ft.
Imagine what the 88mm flak will be like. way higher ROF, faster travers speed, allround vision, altitude fusing on the rounds...
It is probably 5 time as effective as an anti air weapon then the kwk 40 mounted on a pzIv...
Could it be the old rangefinding issue again.. The tanks had no way of telling the range of an aircraft accuratly enough to fire at it..but we get the constant read out on it....
Would be a big advantage..

[Ghosth]

Pongo,

I could be wrong here, but have you ever tried it? Have you driven a panzer & had f4u's buzzing you? Until you've had a
typhoon or F4u comeing straight at you guns blazeing from D1.5k you don't know what it's like from the panzers point of view. Find them in your sight way out, follow them in all the way, wait until they fill your sight & Bam.

Until you have done it yourself 6 to 10 times you really have no idea of how difficult it is or isn't.

Now, as to the 3.5k crossing shot, one in a million! I've dropped a lot of ammo at buffs in the 3 to 4k range maybe 1 in a hundred connects.

Fact of the matter is the tanks die easy enough to a swarm of planes above. Stay high, set up a steep dive angle, drop a bomb or rockets. Strafeing works in the F4U's all too well, but it does tend to leave you open for return fire.

I've shot down most, & my favorite to kill is the typhoon. While it can be fast, after the first pass or 2 it's slow, doesn't manuver much, & is big, giveing me a bigger target.

Most times I don't even shoot till they are within 350.  By that time they fill my sight,
makeing a pretty easy target.

Last, have you walked up to a F4U in real life & looked at that cowl? I have, it's one heck of a big thing standing there.

[Ripsnort]

Agree with GhostH 100%.  Tanks already have the disadvantage of not being able to disengage and run home like a sissy P51 pilot.  If anything, the armour should be increased to help the tank from becoming obsolete in 6 months when the new-ness wears off.

[Apache]

Deleted.


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Apache
I/JG2 ~Richthofen~
"Abandon All Hope"

[This message has been edited by Apache (edited 05-01-2000).]