Author Topic: Barrel Roll Defense / Offense  (Read 3105 times)

Offline dtango

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1702
Barrel Roll Defense / Offense
« on: August 07, 2001, 05:36:00 PM »
A semi-common manuever I've encountered while in BnZ mode and closing on a defender from 6'o-clock level is a defensive barrel roll.  Several things can transpire afterwards:

[list=1]
  • If I have a lot more E, my shot is spoiled, I blow past and zoom up to setup for another pass.  -This outcome I don't mind as much.
  • If my speed is slighthly faster than the bogey and if I'm not careful this puts me in a real pickle barrel with the enemy rolling onto my 6 as I overshoot with me having really no appreciable E advantage at all to extend away.  I end up either trying to extend desperately or in rolling scissors (which I'm horrible at!). - This outcome I do mind!
  • [/list=a]

    This defense seems to be pretty effective, but when I've been the defender and tried the manuever I can't seem to get it.  I typically end up doing either aileron rolls, making my barrel rolls too small where I can't force an overshoot, or making them too large/slow so that an attacker can follow or I burn up way too much E.

    I'm looking for people's advice on the topic.  What is the proper way to execute the manuever?  What is a counter if you are an attacker?

    [ 08-07-2001: Message edited by: dtango ]
Tango / Tango412 412th FS Braunco Mustangs
"At times it seems like people think they can chuck bunch of anecdotes into some converter which comes up with the flight model." (Wmaker)

Offline SpitLead

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 202
Barrel Roll Defense / Offense
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2001, 07:10:00 PM »
I think the trick is to NOT fall into a simple aileron roll where you're rolling about the same axis.  This does nothing (or very little) to force the overshoot.  You need to do a TRUE barrel roll where you lose little speed but are now traversing a longer distance to cover the same ground since you are now following a spiral path to get there.

Hope this helps.   :)

Offline Lephturn

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1200
      • http://lephturn.webhop.net
Barrel Roll Defense / Offense
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2001, 07:24:00 AM »
Well the trick is, this is essentially a sucker move.    :)  A defensive barrel roll is essentially a way to make the other guy overshoot by using a barrel roll to make your flight path longer.  At the same time as you lengthen your flight path, you also roll around in a manner that is difficult to track, so you avoid getting shot most of the time.  If your attacker sees what you are doing and understands how to counter it, he will either camp out on your six and blow you away when your E bleeds down from all the maneuvering, or if he has enough E he'll zoom up BEFORE he overshoots and set up another attack.  Notice the capital letters.   :)  It's no good to overshoot horribly and THEN try to zoom up and away.  You have to see it coming beforehand, then either slow down and lengthen your flight path to follow him, or zoom back up before you overshoot and become a target.

If you have enough extra smash (speed) you can often simply blow through into a steep zoom before he can get to you.  However, after the second or third attempt, that energy advantage will likely have dwindled, and you won't have the extra speed to overshoot without getting nailed for it.

It all boils down to understanding what the defender is trying to do, and what the available counters are.  If you are going to try and shoot him anyway, you need to decide that early and go for it, then be ready to extend to his cold side (bottom of his plane) to zoom back up.  If you don't think you can hit him, be prepared to either zoom away early and possibly try to sucker him in to following you up without enough E, or camp out on his six without overshooting.

Now, this is a very different move from a "barrel roll attack".  That uses a barrel roll to generate separation to allow the attacker with more speed/energy to stay in the bogey's rear quarter without giving up his speed advantage.  It's not an intuitive move, and pretty much the only way I every understood it was by buying Shaw's Fighter Combat and reading that section while practicing it online and dying a lot attempting it.   :D

Now if you are using a barrel roll defensively, you need to do two critical things.  1.  Estimate the attacker's energy level.  2.  Hit a good barrel roll at just the right time.  Both of these are tough to do.  In order for the barrl roll defense to work, the attacker must have more energy than you, and at the attack point that means more speed.  If he isn't already flying quite a bit faster than you are, he may be able to simply slow down a bit and stay on your six.  Assuming he is quite a bit faster and is not going to be able to slow down and stay with you, it comes down to timing.  You want to hit a big barrel roll with lots of back stick (so you make a big corkscrew in the air) at JUST the right time.  Ideally you want to start it just before he is going to shoot you so that he lines you up for the shot (pulling lead pursuit and increasing his closure rate... ensuring an overshoot) but that you are rolling out of his gun sights before the bullets hit home.  Getting the timing right is the hard part.  Make sure you are pulling back on the stick enough to make a real barrel roll, practice this and film it, then review with trails on and make sure you displace your flight path lots, not just roll around your engine line.

Ok, lets say the attacker dives in to your six, and starts lining up for the shot.  You start a very gentle break to the left and he lines you up for a nice deflection shot.  Sucker!   :D  As he gets in range, you suddenly pull into a hard barrel roll.  His shot misses, and you watch him and see he is going to overshoot.  Once he is going to blow through, you are unloaded (not pulling back anymore) and rolling onto his flight path.  If he has blown it and you timed it right, you are now on his six as he zooms away, but you may get there in time for a nice snapshot opportunity before he is out of range.  Now if you've got a shot take it, but otherwise you should be accellerating as much as you can, and building speed.  You'll need more E to burn to defend his next attack.

One more thing, after he overshoots and you can't quite get guns on him, DO NOT try to follow him up.  Assuming he had more E and was forced to overshoot, you will stall out below him if you try to go up with him.  This is every E fighter's dream... that the guy who just evaded him will get sucked in to going vertical without enough E, and then stall and wallow helplessly below for an easy kill. Don't take the bait!

[ 08-08-2001: Message edited by: Lephturn ]

Offline dtango

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1702
Barrel Roll Defense / Offense
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2001, 08:51:00 AM »
Thanks for the responses guys.  Lephturn, thanks for the great post dealing with both the attacker and defender roles.

A few questions:[list=1]
  • As a defender what's a typical range that you use as a cue to time initiating the barrel roll?
  • I assume that you start the barrel roll in the direction of your gentle break.  Is it ever advisable to try barrel rolling in the opposite direction?
  • Lephturn, what does your training schedule look like?  I would very much like to practice this as a defender and attacker.  I've been practicing barrel rolls offline and filming to see if I'm able to get a lot of displacement and think I'm ready to add an opponent into the equation.
  • [/list=a]

    On the offensive b-roll / "lag displacement roll"- I've read that part over and over in Shaw.  I would like to get good at this as well.  It's a hard maneuver to do without losing sight of the bogey and yet make the corkscrew large enough to displace your flight path.
Tango / Tango412 412th FS Braunco Mustangs
"At times it seems like people think they can chuck bunch of anecdotes into some converter which comes up with the flight model." (Wmaker)

Offline Rocket

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 403
Barrel Roll Defense / Offense
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2001, 09:34:00 AM »
My fav defense for this attack is to do the following.
  Pull up slightly while rolling left or right.. always do it differently.  Continue to roll while pulling slightly and adding just a bit of rudder into the equation.  When I see con can't follow the move and is pulling into zoom I continue the roll until I am now behind the con with a quick snapshot before he is outta guns range, once he is outta guns range get the heck outta dodge.  You follow him for long you will make a nice supper  :)  :)   This makes a large barrel roll in a lopsided way.  It still lets me have the option while tracking the attacker to change my direction of travel if he has slowed down to follow me. As for the timing it is just one of those trial and error type things.  It depends on your speed, his rate of closure and when you see him.  

As Leph pointed out as the attacker you need to be able to read this manuever ahead of time to counter it.  The key is when making a BnZ attack or trying to bounce an opponant is to start your dive early enough so that you are coming up from the cons low 6.  If you overshoot then you are already moving up away from the target before they can get turned for a guns shot.  If I see him pull a turn like this and I know I have a high rate of closure I will alot of times pull up and roll the opposite direction, watching the con in my six views, then continue the roll back down behind the con.  Doing this I have created a little bit of seperation and converted my speed to alt. which when I roll back into the con I will have converted back to speed.  You will lose site just for a moment as the con passes under the belly of your plane but it should be only a momentary lose of sight.  With practice you can get good at figuring out where the con will be during this lose of sight. The better the opponant the less predictable they are.  The guys like Leph that are really good very rarely turn the same way twice in a row or make the first break in the same direction. It makes it tougher to attack or defend  :)


If Leph is tied up I am free Thurs and Friday that I could give ya a hand.  
rocket@wardogs.org


S!
Rocket
AH Training Corp
AH CM Team

Offline Spatula

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1486
Barrel Roll Defense / Offense
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2001, 01:14:00 AM »
The barrel roll defensive is a great move if there is sufficient energy difference to effectively force the overshoot. If not your a sitting duck. Its also not recommended against hispano armed planes (or niks) with good roll ability (Chog) as they can just spray wildly at you, and one ping will ruin your day completely.

To work effectively, you need to 'offer' your 6 to a idiot pilot who was a large E difference (mostly inexperienced BnZ'ers), if they aint so inexperienced you may have just handed them your ass. so use with caution.

It works well against 109s  :D as at high speeds they couldnt hit a barrel rolling con if they wanted to because of the low ROF and bad hi-speed roll/manueverability.
Airborne Kitchen Utensil Assault Group

Offline Lephturn

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1200
      • http://lephturn.webhop.net
Barrel Roll Defense / Offense
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2001, 08:32:00 AM »
Ok, lets answer your questions:

1.  The answer is... it depends.   :D  It depends on closure rate, airspeed, effective guns range, and angle.  Basically, the faster you both are flying and the faster he is closing, the earlier I'll hit my roll.  But it's not cut and dried, it depends on what the attacker is doing and if he is lining up for a shot.  I'd hate to give you rules that get you killed.  Sometime between D 1.1k and D400... but it's better to hit it earlier than too late.   :)  Beware that if there isn't a decent amount of closure rate between you and your attacker, he may just follow you and kill you.  This only works well if the attacker has more speed than you do at the attack point.

2.  I will start the roll in the direction of my break sometimes.  You have to be careful going the other direction, but I do that as well sometimes.  The safest is likely to turn your gentle break into a barrel roll by continuing your roll, putting yourself even farther below the attackers nose and making it more difficult for him to get a shot in.  I will sometimes go the other way, and roll it up, but you need to be very confident to do this.  It can work well and give me a better shot if I pull it off, but it's more dangerous.  You can roll either way... just don't be predictable!  That is above all most important in fights where the enemy makes multiple passes at you, and this situation tends to work out that way if you do it right.   :)  Don't worry about doing the perfect move, just do a decent one to get out of his gunsights, and do something a bit different every time.

3.  My training schedule isn't bad, but my real life schedule is crazy.  I'm working OT, and I'm doing the Multiple Sclerosis bike tour this weekend.  I'd be happy to train with you, but I'm afraid I'll have to wait until at least next week.  In the mean time, I suggest you take rocket up on his offer.  You can always train with me as well later on.   :)

A lag displacement roll and a barrel roll attack are different in my mind anyway.  I'll try to get time to discuss that a bit later today on the board.  Both are challenging, but the barrel roll attack especially takes just the right setup to make it work.

BTW, Spatula and Rocket make great points as well.  What weapons you are facing will help decide if you want to do this move at all, and if so at what range.

[ 08-10-2001: Message edited by: Lephturn ]

Offline Drex

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 627
Barrel Roll Defense / Offense
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2001, 02:06:00 PM »
Love this subject.  Unfortunitly, I'm at work and the computer at my new house is not set up, so I can't go into great deal about my thoughts on this.  

I have been practicing fighting from the defensive for 6 years now.  Most of my kills come from this posture, and I consider it the black art of ACM.  What you are taught as advantages in your journey to become an ace are now not so advantagous, and can lead to your outright death, if you fight a deffensive pilot that is aggressive and knows how to control the fight.  So before I go into my speel(if I get around to it), I will leave this for continued discussion of this thread.

Would a vertical reversal be better before it even got to this point?  A vertical reversal is setup long before the bandit has smash, but a lot of energy in the form of altitude.

Now if the bandit is fast and on your 6 at near your altitude I agree a reversal in the horizontal would be better.  This is just another thought for you guys to discuss.

Drex

Offline Drex

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 627
Barrel Roll Defense / Offense
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2001, 03:30:00 PM »
Sorry one more observation.  I never use the opposing bandit's guns to influence a certain flight path that I will take to setup a reversal.  I always try to defeat the flight path of his airplane, and be in a position where deflection is limited.  Regardless if its a 88mm cannon or a bb gun.

Drex

Offline dtango

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1702
Barrel Roll Defense / Offense
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2001, 10:32:00 PM »
Thanks for the posts guys.  Sorry, I was also out of town over the end of the week and weekend.  Just got back.  

Rocket- I would have taken you up on your offer.  Thur. and Fri nights are your training nights?

Lephturn- understand.  I have to schedule stuff more than a couple of days in advance anyhow.  If you are around this week let me know, otherwise I'll look for Rocket.
Tango / Tango412 412th FS Braunco Mustangs
"At times it seems like people think they can chuck bunch of anecdotes into some converter which comes up with the flight model." (Wmaker)

Offline Andy Bush

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 153
      • http://www.simhq.com  (Contributing Editor - Air Combat Corner)
Barrel Roll Defense / Offense
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2001, 10:39:00 AM »
>>A lag displacement roll and a barrel roll attack are different in my mind anyway. I'll try to get time to discuss that a bit later today on the board. Both are challenging, but the barrel roll attack especially takes just the right setup to make it work.<<

They certainly are!!

The Lag Roll is used to control closure and/or range. A Barrel Roll is used to control aspect. These maneuvers require considerable differences in flight control/throttle input.

Andy

Offline Dwarf

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 67
Barrel Roll Defense / Offense
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2001, 04:19:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Andy Bush:
>>They certainly are!!

The Lag Roll is used to control closure and/or range. A Barrel Roll is used to control aspect. These maneuvers require considerable differences in flight control/throttle input.

Andy

To (hopefully) expand on part of that...

Suppose you notice a bandit crossing your flightpath from left to right and lower than you are.  You lead turn to intercept him and initiate a slight dive to get to his altitude... both geometry and E are helping you close on him... about the time you get to, say 15-20 AOT and ALMOST guns range, he breaks....

Now, even if your overtake is only moderate, you may very well overshoot.  

Whether a lag-displacemnt roll is an appropriate choice depends entirely on which direction the bad guy breaks.

If he breaks AWAY from your nose, it is not.  Your lead pursuit just became lag pursuit due to the direction of his break, and displacing further into lag (rolling away from his break) will only help him.  It would basically give away all of your current advantage.

If, instead, he breaks across your nose, rolling away from his break should allow you to remain at his low 6 and preserve all your current advantages.

The basic thing to remember is that a lag roll needs to be initiated from a position of lead.  It's one way of converting lead pursuit into lag pursuit so that you don't give away your starting advantage.

Dwarf

I hope Andy will expand on what he means by using the barrell-roll to control aspect.

Offline Andy Bush

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 153
      • http://www.simhq.com  (Contributing Editor - Air Combat Corner)
Barrel Roll Defense / Offense
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2001, 08:09:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dwarf:
[QB]

Suppose you notice a bandit crossing your flightpath from left to right and lower than you are...about the time you get to, say 15-20 AOT and ALMOST guns range, he breaks...If he breaks AWAY from your nose...

If he breaks away from your nose, he has solved your problem. Continue to close to guns.

...If, instead, he breaks across your nose, rolling away from his break should allow you to remain at his low 6 and preserve all your current advantages...

In this situation, a High Yo-Yo is probably more effective. A rolling maneuver would tend to increase angle off while decreasing aspect. A gross flight path overshoot may well occur. In any case, a rolling maneuver is flown to the high six, not the low six.

...The basic thing to remember is that a lag roll needs to be initiated from a position of lead...

Not so. It's not nose position that drives the lag roll...it's closure and/or min range. Heading crossing angle is a secondary issue.

...I hope Andy will expand on what he means by using the barrell-roll to control aspect..

In traditional BFM, the Barrel Roll is used to solve a positional problem. The classic situation is one where the attacker finds himself moving towards the bandit's 3/9 line. The attacker wants to convert to a six o'clock position. He uses a Barrel Roll to move laterally towards the bandit's six (decreasing aspect angle) without increasing his angle off.

Andy

Offline Dwarf

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 67
Barrel Roll Defense / Offense
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2001, 04:26:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Andy Bush:


...If, instead, he breaks across your nose, rolling away from his break should allow you to remain at his low 6 and preserve all your current advantages...

In this situation, a High Yo-Yo is probably more effective. A rolling maneuver would tend to increase angle off while decreasing aspect. A gross flight path overshoot may well occur. In any case, a rolling maneuver is flown to the high six, not the low six.

Agreed.  In any situation where a lag roll might be effective, a Hi Yo-Yo should be at least equally effective.

 
Quote

...The basic thing to remember is that a lag roll needs to be initiated from a position of lead...

Not so. It's not nose position that drives the lag roll...it's closure and/or min range. Heading crossing angle is a secondary issue.

I think you're starting to stray into jet tactics and minimum missile range solutions here.  Closure is going to have to be extremely high before rolling from lag pursuit into even greater lag pursuit is likely to pay off for a guns equiped prop fighter.

 
Quote

In traditional BFM, the Barrel Roll is used to solve a positional problem. The classic situation is one where the attacker finds himself moving towards the bandit's 3/9 line. The attacker wants to convert to a six o'clock position. He uses a Barrel Roll to move laterally towards the bandit's six (decreasing aspect angle) without increasing his angle off.

Andy

Thanks.  I understand what you were saying now.

Dwarf

Offline Andy Bush

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 153
      • http://www.simhq.com  (Contributing Editor - Air Combat Corner)
Barrel Roll Defense / Offense
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2001, 08:43:00 PM »
Dwarf

>>Agreed. In any situation where a lag roll might be effective, a Hi Yo-Yo should be at least equally effective.<<

Not really true. A High Yo-Yo is designed for situations where a crossing angle exists, often against a turning opponent. In low angle off situations where excessive closure combined with min range is the problem, a High Yo-Yo is not the best solution.

The attacker in this case can do two things...throttle back or vector roll. A throttle chop seldom creates the desired reduction in closure, particularly when the closure is excessive. A Vector Roll is the better maneuver of choice. While a High Yo-Yo will create the lengthened flight path that will reduce closure, it will also allow the bandit an opportunity to extend away...something the use of a Vector Roll tends to avoid.  

>>Closure is going to have to be extremely high before rolling from lag pursuit into even greater lag pursuit is likely to pay off for a guns equiped prop fighter.<<

A Vector Roll is not "greater lag pursuit". It is a maneuver that kills airspeed (and closure...the two are not the same) while preserving nose position...and it does this quicker than a throttle chop.

You know, Dwarf...I appreciate your enthusiasm for BFM...but I think you, like some others, have made the mistake of thinking that playing flight sim games and reading Shaw's book makes you a BFM expert. This is simply not the case. Shaw's book is a very well written exposition on the subject...but it is very academic and is best understood by those who have had the benefit of professional training and experience. In the same vein, simmers who enjoy NASCAR racing, should not think that they are qualified for the next Daytona 500!

Now, don't get me wrong...I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade...but too often I run across forum posts that are patently ridiculous...from people who are genuinely trying to be helpful and informative. Good on 'em...but bad info is worse than no info at all. Those readers that come to our forums for help are done a disservice by such amateurish info.

So where does this leave us? Clearly, few simmers are going to have the luxury of a military background and its attendant academics. Does this mean only military pilots should post on the forums? Not at all. My wish is that some of the more aggressive posters would use a little more of the "I think such-and-such should be the case, but I really am not sure" rather than being so noodlesure as to think that they have got a total clue light on all the time.

Please reread your posts. To me, you are pretty assertive in your statements...you leave little wiggle room in your pronouncements. Unfortunately, BFM begs for wiggle room because the subject is so completely dependent on many and varied assumptions.

I have two choices...well, really three. One...I can just let it go...but that's not fair to someone who might be taking what you say for the gospel truth. Or, I could step in and try to repair the damage.

That leaves my third option. I could just go away. Ever wonder why there are so few of us real world folks around here? I could give you a number of reasons...but here's the main one...they don't have time for know-it-alls that don't.

Andy