Barrel Roll Defense / Offense

[Sundog]

Andy, I have a question regarding the lag roll pursuit. Before I get to that, I thought your description of the barrel roll for offensive maneuvering was excellent! Seriously, why don't you write a book on ACM/BFM for online sims? Everyone in my Squad has Shaw's book, but as you pointed out, it is highly technical. Your online articles have been quite excellent. Any plan to publish them all in one tome?

As for my lag roll question, I have always viewed it as a 'version' of the high yo-yo. I think what you said above is that 'it isn't'. Let me just explain to you how I have viewed it, and then you can tell me what it is I am actually doing.  

Now I will reference the Bandit wrt to my nose. Imagine I am closing with excess E onto a bandit which is offset to my left (We both have the same heading). The bandit, seeing me closing breaks left. So that I don't bleed E while turning into him, I would normally pull into a High Yo_Yo to maintain E and reposition onto the bandits 6 in either lag or pure pursuit. Now that's what I do and what I call it (Not saying it is correct   for a high yo-yo.

For the lag roll, take the same set-up, with the bandit offset left. The Bandit seeing me closing off his 5 OC, breaks across my nose to the right. Now, if I pull into what I call a high yo-yo, there is a point where I would lose sight of the bandit under me. So as the bandit begins it's break into me, I begin pulling up into the vertical, to maintain E, and as the bandits break turn begins to cross under my LOS, I roll over and keep him in viz as I pull over the top and roll back down behind him. I usually fly that in lag pursuit. My question is, is that a lag roll, a High Yo-Yo with a barrel roll added in, or just bad flying?  

Thanks in advance. Especially for all the good advice you have offered throughout the years.

[ 08-16-2001: Message edited by: Sundog ]

[Andy Bush]

Sundog

>>Seriously, why don't you write a book on ACM/BFM for online sims?<<

Thanks for the attaboy! My writing partner, Leon "Badboy" Smith, and I have spent considerable time investigating ways to do a "how to" book. Unfortunately, for the kind of work that we want to do, we have yet to find a way that we can make work. We haven't given up the idea, though. Until then, we'll continue to work on articles and forum messages.

>>Imagine I am closing with excess E onto a bandit which is offset to my left...The bandit, seeing me closing breaks left...I...pull into a High Yo_Yo...<<

For starters, if the bandit breaks left in this situation, he's clueless and deserves to die! As a rule, a defender should break into the attacker, not away. Breaking away solves the attacker's positional and closure problems.

But, let's just say he does! Could you use a yo-yo? Certainly, particularly if you had excessive closure that a simple in-plane lag pursuit course would not overcome. While this is an unusual set up, your maneuver choice would be satisfactory, and I would still call it a High Yo-Yo.

 
>>For the lag roll, take the same set-up, with the bandit offset left. The Bandit seeing me closing off his 5 OC, breaks across my nose to the right.<<

In your initial description of the set up, you used words that are extremely pertinent to this discussion..."We both have the same heading". How so? Because the relationship of your fuselage alignment to the bandit's is a major determinant in your choice of maneuvers.

In my previous post, I mentioned that any discussion of BFM has to include some "wiggle room". Having said that, here is a rule of thumb to consider regarding the choice between a yo-yo and a rolling maneuver under these conditions:

1. If your angle off is less than 20-30 degrees, consider a rolling maneuver.

2. For angles off greater than 30 degrees, yo-yo off instead.

Why? Because a rolling maneuver tends to increase angle off. So does a yo-yo, but less so...and in our sims with their limited viewing platforms, the yo-yo is less disorienting.

When possible (viewing system permitting) I prefer the rolling maneuver, even under starting conditions of angle offs greater than 30 degrees. In this case, before I begin the roll, I attempt to align my fuselage as much as possible with the bandit. I only attempt this if I have sufficient range...if range is minimum, I yo-yo off.  

>>My question is, is that a lag roll, a High Yo-Yo with a barrel roll added in, or just bad flying?<<

Sounds like good flying to me no matter what we call it. It may not fit the exact traditional definition of a High Yo-Yo or Barrel Roll...but your execution is what counts. You are getting out of plane to gain turning room...this is good. You are counter rolling to maintain a tally...good again. Then you time your pull down to fall into a guns position...perfect!

Don't change a thing!

Andy

[Sundog]

Thanks for the timely reply. In regards to a 'good way to explain these topics', what about making a CD Book? i.e., text and diagramattic explanations, but then add in animations to demonstrate the maneuver. Make the animation viewable from a 'camera overview' of the maneuver, the attackers viewpoint, and the defenders viewpoint.

The first animation would show the move/attack on the unwitting bandit. The second animation regarding the same maneuver would demonstrate a 'good' counter-maneuver by the bandit to thwart the attack. There could be the flight path representation as shown by the 'trail' command in AH film and/or the the three orthogonal planes plotting the courses of attacker/defender on the three planes. You could also have 'Energy Bars' on the side (Think of your stereo equalizer) showing  Total Energy for each aircraft with two 'sub bars' next to the larger bars representing the seperate P.E. and K.E. of each aircraft to understand the energy management required for optimum performance of the manuever (Obviously under ideal circumstances).

Just food for thought. Maybe I'll see if I can whip something like that up in 3dSMax. If I do, I'll definitely forward it to you to check out.

[Andy Bush]

Sundog

Great ideas...but hard to make commercially feasible. We've looked at CDs, print, on-line, etc...and not found a way to make this make money. And, after all, it is a business deal!

One thing about air combat...not much new has come along in many a year. There are plenty of reference books, strategy guides, "how to" publications on the subject for simmers. If someone just wants to read about the subject, no problem.

Well, I take it back. There is a problem. Most of what has been written is real world info...Shaw's book, for example. Real world info is fine...every simmer ought to have a good background in it. But that's only half the issue. The other is bridging the gap between real world concepts and what can be replicated in a sim.

That's where Leon and I come in. We try to take the real world subject and write about it in sim terms. The trick is to know what can be replicated in a sim and what can't.

As someone once said, "the devil is in the details"...and that is where we run into problems with our book idea. As far as I'm concerned, the issue is not getting the simmer to understand "X" subject...instead, it's working around two major hurdles. One, the viewing system in question...some are better than others. Two, the AI/FM...it may well be that the AI/FM is not programmed to permit the execution of the subject.

For example, manual dive bombing. Some sims, particularly the WW2 sims, allow this to be flown. In RL, manual weapons delivery is a very complex problem...not one that many simmers would want to spend the time to understand (if you do, see my A2G series at SimHQ!). Most simmers just point their nose at the target and let fly. Sometimes they get a hit, sometimes they don't. I don't have a clue how sims program this, but I doubt that it's according to the physics involved.

This is just one of many examples that beg for a complete discussion...one that explains the theory and the execution in sim terms. This means illustrating the subject with screenshots...if the viewing system does not allow a good view of what is going on, then the issue is pretty much DOA. And if the AI/FM is not programmed "realistically", then all that theory goes down the drain too.

All of which is a long way of saying that we've had a problem getting our hands around the subject. We don't want to do just another regurgitation of what's already available. But to do what we want, in the detail that we want, is financially unworkable so far...meaning too much work, too little return.

But...we'll keep it in mind.

Andy

[ 08-17-2001: Message edited by: Andy Bush ]

[Dwarf]

Andy -

As you correctly point out, very few simmers have the luxury of your background and training.

So, why is it that some of your posts are so cryptic?  Why do you introduce terms nobody has ever heard before... and then neglect to define them?

Vector Roll is merely the latest.  You use it twice and claim that it will reduce both speed and closure, yet nowhere do you offer the least guidance on how this maneuver is performed, or what makes it different from a Barrell Roll or any other kind of roll.

Why?  If your purpose is truly to reduce confusion and misinformation, why the abstruse terms and the lack of any explanation?

The entirety of your first post in this thread consists of:
 

They certainly are!!

The Lag Roll is used to control closure and/or range. A Barrel Roll is used to control aspect. These maneuvers require considerable differences in flight control/throttle input.

Andy

Which is somewhat less than helpful.  All it really says is, "I know more than you do."

Guess what?  When it comes to ACM, you probably do.  Big surprise.

But, rather than share what you know, what those "differences in flight control/throttle input.", are, you sit there playing "I've Got A Seeeecret."

Do you even begin to understand how unhelpful and unnecessary that is?

I probably find it particularly annoying because I just lay out what I know (or don't know) and let anyone with better information refute me.  That way, everybody learns something.  

Hedging in regard to ACM is important, but one can also qualify statements to the point where they lose all meaning.  Most of us are knowlegebale enough to know that everything carries an implied "sometimes but not always".

Here's an unvarnished truth for you though - Not only do none of us know it all, but none of us knows how to present what we know in a way that everyone can understand.

The more people there are contributing to the discussion, the more information comes to light, and the more likely it is that somebody will hit on something that makes sense to at least one other person.

Since humans seem to gain something from that kind of discussion and challenge to each other's assertions, I find that a "Good Thing".  YMMV.

Dwarf

[Andy Bush]

Sorry if I confused you, Dwarf.

A Vector Roll is also known as a Lag Roll...not to be confused with a Lag Displacement Roll or a Barrel Roll. For more info, see Shaw.

Anyone know what "YMMV" stands for?

Andy

[Ozark]

Originally posted by Andy Bush:

Anyone know what "YMMV" stands for?

Andy

Your Mileage May Vary?  

[mrfish]

the barrell roll is about the only effective move i have when a spit or n1k is on my 109g2's tail and has an energy advantage. (i have been given suggestions but this is the only one that seems to work for me )

can't out-run them, can't out-turn them, somehow the barrel roll right at the planes turning stall limits seems to throw them - sometimes at least  

ps - i find that people have a harder time following me through a barrell roll to the right than one to the left.

[Andy Bush]

Ozark

LOL!!

Thanks,

Andy

[Dwarf]

Originally posted by Andy Bush:
Sorry if I confused you, Dwarf.

A Vector Roll is also known as a Lag Roll...not to be confused with a Lag Displacement Roll or a Barrel Roll. For more info, see Shaw.

Anyone know what "YMMV" stands for?

Andy

Sorry, OH GREAT GURU, but Shaw doesn't list anything for "lag-roll".

He does however talk about the "Lag Displcement Roll", and in spite of the fact that you've already indicated that Shaw is "acedemic", and "Real pilots know better"...

Page 67 middle of page "Lag Displacement Rolls"...
"In the lag-pursuit discussion ONE" (my emphasis ONE, (mustn't offend Andy with too few qualifiers) "method was mentioned for achieving a position inside the defender's turn at medium AOT [about 30 to 60 degrees AOT], when the range is only slighty greater than that desired for lag.  This method involves relaxing the turn and allowing the nose to drift behind the target until approaching the desired lag position, remaining essentially in  the  same maneuver plane as the target until approaching the desired lag position.  When he sees this maneuver, the bogey pilot may assume the attacker cannot match his turn performance and is about to overshoot.  Such an assumption may induce the defender to reverse his turn direction to gain position advantage on the overshooting attacker - but this often presents the attacker with a gun-shot opportunity instead.

Other initial conditions require different tactics for  reaching a lag postiton."

In Other Words (for the met inpaired), sometimes, the lag-displacement roll isn't the best tactic.

Due to your "advantaged" position as someone who has flown combat aircraft, it's really a shame that you have such a closed mind about anyone  else's viewpoint, or the value of their regard for the situation you have chosen to pontificate upon.

I sincerely hope that you're man enough to change that.

Dwarf

[Dweeb]

Originally posted by Dwarf:


I sincerely hope that you're man enough to change that.

Dwarf

Dwarf, has anyone ever told you that you are an amazinhunk?

Well you are! I sincerely believe you will never be man enough to change that.

Dweeb

[Andy Bush]

Dwarf

Keep reading.

>>Other initial conditions require different tactics for reaching a lag postiton."<<

The very next sentence introduces Shaw's discussion of the Lag Roll concept as compared to the Lag Displacement Roll. He first sets up the conditions of the BFM problem.

Then on page 68, second paragraph, he describes this maneuver as illustrated in Figure 2-5 called a "lag roll".

On page 69, third paragraph, he goes on to compare this to a "displacement roll".

Please note the variables in question are closure, range, and angle off...as I was commenting on to begin with.

As I said earlier...the problem with Shaw's book is that not everyone understands it...but thinks they do.

Andy

[Ozark]

dtango,

Thanks for starting this topic...I learned alot. The only problem is that...I'm just a hillbilly from Missouri and need someone to move their hands around in the air to "Show Me". So, I guess I'll have to go to the AH Con this year.  

I hope many of you folks will be there too. <S>

[dtango]

Thanks Ozark.  I can't say that I've digested everything said here!  I was reading and re-reading the sections that Dwarf and Andy Bush were referring to in Shaw and it certainly is confusing to me.

At any rate, I've made peace with it for now in that I was really interested in the barrel-roll defense with a 2ndary interest in lag-rolls, displacement rolls, and lag displacement rolls, etc. --> all mean as about as much to me as a cinnamon roll!  

When my brain is up to it I'll probably try and digest some of this and maybe post a new thread with my questions to get clarity on all this.

Tango, Corporal
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412 Braunco Mustang Fighter Squadron
 

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but let your will be that events should happen as they do, and you will have peace.
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[Don]

Originally posted by dtango:
 I typically end up doing either aileron rolls, making my barrel rolls too small where I can't force an overshoot, or making them too large/slow so that an attacker can follow or I burn up way too much E.

I'm looking for people's advice on the topic.  What is the proper way to execute the manuever?  What is a counter if you are an attacker?

[ 08-07-2001: Message edited by: dtango ][/QB]

Dtango:

A barrel roll isn't as easy a manuever as it may seem. It entails a gradual pulling back on the stick and gently pushing the stick to either the right or left. This gives the ship a slight climb and roll in the motion. It shouldnt result in the loss in alt if done properly and can result in the nme overshooting you. I use the move on the defense because it does spoil the aim of a pursuin g nme. It doesnt help much if yer being ganged though, and yer death is inevitable.