Author Topic: ACMs or Gunnery  (Read 6240 times)

Offline Nwbie

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ACMs or Gunnery
« Reply #105 on: January 06, 2005, 03:31:28 PM »
Is anyone else finding this common nowadays in game?
I mean the sittin on someones 6 - knowing full well u are in range, and not getting any hits? Seems like I have this more and more and am even slipping and sliding up and down to get more of an angle cuz I can't hit watermelon from the rear anymore..

NwBie


Quote
Originally posted by Tilt
My gunnery has always been sloppy feasious matter......I still struggle under the simplist of leads..........

How many folk have seen me glued to some  saps 6 until my ammo has run dry..........

Just occasionally I get a full ruddered lead shot or some  body actually stalls out at less than 200 in my sights.............
Skuzzy-- "Facts are slowly becoming irrelevant in favor of the nutjob."

Offline dedalos

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« Reply #106 on: January 06, 2005, 03:43:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nwbie
Is anyone else finding this common nowadays in game?
I mean the sittin on someones 6 - knowing full well u are in range, and not getting any hits? Seems like I have this more and more and am even slipping and sliding up and down to get more of an angle cuz I can't hit watermelon from the rear anymore..

NwBie


Yep, all the time, but I suck.  I did a litle experiment last night.  After firing 300 rounds from my LALA from distances closer than 400, I made one last pass, closed in at 200, zoomed in, lined up nowhere near the target and emptied the rest of the ammo using the ruder to spray all over the screen.  No hits, pulled up to go home and then I heard the explosion.  He died.  Maybe I scared him to death :confused:
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline Urchin

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« Reply #107 on: January 06, 2005, 05:26:16 PM »
I'd say I tend to be more accurate in a 109 than in a 190, but that is balanced by the fact that the 190 has 4 20mm shooting, so you don't really need to be as accurate to get kills.  

So I guess I'd agree that nose mounted guns are easier to hit with, provided you are familiar with the gun.  I do better in the P-51 or P-47 than I do in the P-38 simply because I don't use 50s or Hizookas much.

Offline Zazen13

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« Reply #108 on: January 06, 2005, 07:13:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by TequilaChaser
I am curious as to why so many of the flyers in Aces High believe this to be true that nose/cowl mounted guns do not have any convergences issues?

I myself have done offline test on this and find that German planes the cannon drop is 50 to 100 short of the small caliber guns depending if it is 30mm cannon or 20 mm cannon, same holds true for the p38..........so if you set your convergences at 300 in the P38 and aim at a target 650 out you will be below the bullseye, if you set your  convergence at 600 and aim at a target 400 out you will most likely be a bit above it.......

does this not relate to convergence although it is converging in the vertical sense and not horizontal?

I often set my cannons 50 longer than my Mg's so they hit near same spot  most of the time....

I believe the theory of nose/cowl mounted guns having no convergences issues is a myth and that it may seem like it to those that fly these type gun platforms but in actuality it is the mental picture in your brain doing the sighting for you and you are not using the convergence at all........you have flown this type of gun platform for a good while and if you have converged to 600, your mental picture is telling you where/when to pull the trigger not the icon,  same is with any convergence setting...just my opinion though....

how many after flying for a year or 2 still watch the icon? alot of you prob think you do but I would say it is the planes shape/size position in flight that tells that  braincell to pull the trigger.....

and I apologize for side tracking this thread....


What you are referring to is shell dispersion. That is, the further shells travel the more they disperse over an ever wideneing area, shell drop is included in the dispersion effect. Convergence is a different animal in that guns are synchronized to fire at the same point from different angles at a certain distance. This is required because on planes without nose/cowl mounted guns the shells emnate from entirely different points of the aircraft. In the p38 for example all guns fire from the exact same location, so there is no convergence point. Convergence is not an issue.

Zazen
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Author of, "The Zen Art of Cherrypicking" and other related works.
Quote, "Cherrypicking is a state of mind & being, not only Art and Scienc

Offline Canaris

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« Reply #109 on: January 06, 2005, 07:31:46 PM »
ACM,
I feel this because if you get caught in a ho and is fortunate to live or avoid the bullets, than you will need to be able to get behind the other's 6.  If you cant than you have already lost.  If you have a plane that has plenty of bullets such as a 38 or 47 than you will have plenty of shots if you can out maneuver the other plane.

Canaris

Offline Murdr

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« Reply #110 on: January 23, 2005, 10:55:47 PM »
Got some new info for this discussion.  I have changed to a completely new controler setup.  My gunnery for this tour has dropped to near 3%.  Partially from not being proficient with the action of the new stick, but mostly from having a mental block learning to use flight pedals instead of racing pedals.

Point is, my other stats are consistant with my past performance, and actually a little higher than last tour.  Seems to support my ACM reply even further ;)

Offline TequilaChaser

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« Reply #111 on: January 24, 2005, 12:17:31 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Zazen13
What you are referring to is shell dispersion. That is, the further shells travel the more they disperse over an ever wideneing area, shell drop is included in the dispersion effect. Convergence is a different animal in that guns are synchronized to fire at the same point from different angles at a certain distance. This is required because on planes without nose/cowl mounted guns the shells emnate from entirely different points of the aircraft. In the p38 for example all guns fire from the exact same location, so there is no convergence point. Convergence is not an issue.

Zazen


Air To Air Gunnery Revisited - Guns, Gunsights, and Convergence
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline Naudet

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« Reply #112 on: January 24, 2005, 08:11:44 AM »
It depends on the situation you are facing.

If you are in a pure 1v1 situation with both pilots in the same plane the order would be:

1. ACM
2. Gunnery
3. SA

Because of the nature of the engagement SA is not the desive skill here, you only have to track one single opponent.
Gunnery is important so you don't waste to many shot opportunities.
Ability to effectively position yourself behind the other guy is king here, it gives you the possiblity to avoid his gun pass at the merge (HO situation) and after that to stay behind him.


But in the usual MA furball situation the order would change to:

1. SA
2. Gunnery
3. ACM

SA is here the absolute dominating skill one most possess, it allows you to track multiple targets, friendlies, judge their position relative to you, analyse their "threat value" and to see opportunities were its easy to "cherry pick" an EA.
Gunnery gets more importance here, because to keep you "fast and running" you should be able to score in the "cherry pick" moments.
ACM is not so important because you will usually only need BFM to maneuver to the shot opportunities you see. You only have to depend on ACM here, when you are stuck real deep in trouble (which could have been avoided if your SA would have been better).


I speak from my own experiences as i never excelt at gunnery nor ACM, but my SA is above average. The more confusion around me the more succesful i am.

And because of this i would always choose gunnery over ACM for flying in the MA. Even more now, with a stupid spike issue on my joysticks x-Axis spoiling almost any deflection and track shots, reducing my gunnery to mere luck.

Offline streetstang

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« Reply #113 on: January 24, 2005, 04:23:41 PM »
This is the most retarded thread I've ever seen go the distance that it has gone.

You people need to get something straight.

With out ACM there is no call for gunnery. How do you think that cross hair gets to where it does? Magic? Air Combat Manuver=ACM.

Get real. Those three little words say it all. Manuver being the most important one of all in dealing with what you are all debating.

I dont think I need to go any further than I have gone. But...

With out ACM you have no gunnery. Its need is non-existant. Whats so hard to understand about that?

All this thread does is prove to me that many think you can bypass any ACM, just throw it out the window because its not important.

Well HELLO!! Its the most important aspect of getting a shot off(Duh Gunnery!)... Period. I dont care what you say. You can't say anything against that, which will turn the facts any other way. Facts are facts. And if you dont understand what ACM is, maybe you better go figure it out. Because it looks like alot of you people have no idea what those three letters stand for.

Offline Jish102

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« Reply #114 on: January 24, 2005, 04:29:08 PM »
I totally agree with u morpheus u absolutely right,anyways most people with a good ACM know when to take their shots
« Last Edit: January 24, 2005, 04:34:30 PM by Jish102 »
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Offline Dace

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« Reply #115 on: January 24, 2005, 06:40:33 PM »
IMHO................. bein superior at either defines what kind of pilot u are.  I think thats been said in a round about way. Although I do think the best pilots in AH, probably have the best aim.

Offline dedalos

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« Reply #116 on: January 25, 2005, 08:31:53 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by streetstang
This is the most retarded thread I've ever seen go the distance that it has gone.

You people need to get something straight.

With out ACM there is no call for gunnery. How do you think that cross hair gets to where it does? Magic? Air Combat Manuver=ACM.

Get real. Those three little words say it all. Manuver being the most important one of all in dealing with what you are all debating.

I dont think I need to go any further than I have gone. But...

With out ACM you have no gunnery. Its need is non-existant. Whats so hard to understand about that?

All this thread does is prove to me that many think you can bypass any ACM, just throw it out the window because its not important.

Well HELLO!! Its the most important aspect of getting a shot off(Duh Gunnery!)... Period. I dont care what you say. You can't say anything against that, which will turn the facts any other way. Facts are facts. And if you dont understand what ACM is, maybe you better go figure it out. Because it looks like alot of you people have no idea what those three letters stand for.


I think you misunderstood what has been said.  I don't think by saying that ACM is more importand than gunnery we assigned 100% importance to ACM and 0% to gunnery or the other way around.  In a 1 on 1 situation getting the kill requires something like >= 90% ACM and <=10% gunnery (just number I pulled out of my ...).  In a furbal or the MA mess I think its the oposite.  ACM will get you killed while good gunnery will get you kills and get you out of there.  I am not commenting on which flying style is better or what skill is better to have.  Just staiting my observations.

Don't take this the wrong way but with all your flying skills, what has made the difference when we meet in the MA (most of the times I can remember) has been your gunnery.  You seem to take me out from D600+ with angles that I would not even consider pulling the triger.

Bottom line, in the MA when not in a 1 on 1, manuver all you want.  If you can't hit someone he or his friend will get you.
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #117 on: January 25, 2005, 09:23:19 AM »
There is no such thing as "ACM" when it is pitte against gunnery. This is true both in real life and in the game. Anything other than the basic pitch up/down, roll clockwise/counter-clockwiseright, yaw left/right, is basically adding more and more unnecessary stuff to make up for the lack of gunnery. If ACM was so really important, the evolutionary process of WW2 planes would have been very different from what it was.

 An ideal 1vs1 situation with both opponents being equal in E-status rarely happens. Everything is based on multiple engagements of all sorts of circumstances springing up at the same time.

 These sort of fights where ACM really becomes important simply doesn't exist, or is much too rare to ever be considered important. It only exists in controlled environment. A fantastic wet-dream for people who just don't understand, or cannot accept that things don't work that way anymore.

 Even in 1vs1 situations the odds are different everytime with very different variables. One can laugh and ridicule someone as a "bore-and-zoomer" all day long, but he'd still never even get a single shot landed on him if the BnZer knows what he is doing.

 Everything else the defender can do is so obvious that basically everybody with some experience in aircombat games know about it. Lure him in? Equalize E-states? Same old trick every time.

 The only reason ACM works in these 1vs1 is because usually, and thankfully, us gamers don't really care about living or dying. We want some wild goose chase fun, so we'll jump into a close-quarters fight after a couple of E-wise, secure passes, and then go risk an unnecessary risk by trying to latch on to a target.

The only reason good ACM works in this game, is because the other guy who's falling for it, basically let's you have a chance in the first place.



 What's so scary about guys like Levi, Fester, Drex? Oh sure, these guys could (and maybe would) say that they personally think ACM is more important. But that's really totally irrelevant. On the receiving end, how these guys fly the plane is frankly nothing special at all. It doesn't matter if its a n00b or a super-ace, or how they fly their plane, when somebody is already lacthed on.

 The real reason these famed aces are so scary in the game, is because their first merge is usually the last merge.
 
 They don't even give you an ACM chance. You can't even drag them down low so your friendlies shoot them down right after he shoots you down. Wiggle all you want, tuck under his nose, go into -G, invert plane, break as tight as possible, stall on purpose, ... yadayadayada  - nothing works. First pass, and boom, your wing falls off.

 Shane often says that he doesn't back out from a fight. But I've never seen Fester back out from a fight either, unless its already something like 5vs1.

 The difference is, Shane quite often gets caught up by multiple bogeys and dies a lot. Fester on the other had  almost never makes this kind of mistake. Why? Because, Shane ACM sometimes backfires on him. Fester hardly even uses any real ACM in the first place, because he doesn't need to.

Offline Manedew

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« Reply #118 on: January 25, 2005, 09:48:05 AM »
I said it before i'll say it agin ....

Just because you have two diffrant words doesn't mean you have two diffrant things......  stupid humans

acm and gunnery are the same thing ....

Offline megadud

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« Reply #119 on: January 25, 2005, 10:29:03 AM »
ACM

I'm not good at either but i have been working on ACM and i have been getting more kills.The ones that say Gunnery say it because they have bad ACM. WW was right SA is most important


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