Author Topic: Make Iran Make the 1st Move  (Read 4144 times)

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Make Iran Make the 1st Move
« Reply #90 on: January 28, 2005, 02:27:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SaburoS
Yes.

Al Quaida just isn't that big or powerful. Change nothing from 9/11 and a 9/11 attack won't happen again. Passengers just won't allow it.


Thats just stupid of you saburo.

So you propose that we just left afghanistan to be a free area for the Al Qaeda to train an organize. Not to mention the propaganda value they would get from having their ideas of a cowardly america confirmed because we didnt attack their central bases and operation in Afghanistan after an outrageus act like 911.. Finally what makes you thibk they would try just asnother 911? They  arent stupid they would know that was a one sdhot deal that exploited a single type of security weakness in the USA. They were working on other attasck types and developing new ideas all the time safely in Afghanistan.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2005, 02:30:20 PM by GRUNHERZ »

Offline SaburoS

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« Reply #91 on: January 28, 2005, 02:35:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Elfie

As far as the US making up stories about WMD in Iraq, how blind are you Saburo? Most of the world's intelligence agencies thought he had them, not just the US. There are chemical munitions that have never been accounted for. They existed, and were verified as having existed, but not all have been accounted for yet. They are still out there somewhere. IF they fall into the hands of terrorists and are used in a terrorist attack.....I bet you blame the US for not finding them.


Really, what countries are you talking about? You think the US wasn't sharing "intel" with the other agencies?
P-R-O-P-A-G-A-N-D-A, or are you that naive?
Even our administration now admits to not finding any. Care to show me where there's an admission by this administration that "WMDs" are still out there but we just can't find them?

The former Soviet Union has some weapons not accounted for.

What is it with the retarded "you're gonna blame the US...."
LOL, you have a funny way of arguing, wrapping yourself in the flag and dare any discussion that disagrees with you as anti-American. You can shove it.
I can make the "anti-American" argument the other way by stating many fine Americans, our best, are dead now because of misguided policy. They'd be alive today.
So can the STUPID anti-American garbage statements.
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. ... Bertrand Russell

Offline SaburoS

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« Reply #92 on: January 28, 2005, 02:57:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Thats just stupid of you saburo.


Name calling's the Stupid part Grun. It's just not necessary to get your point across.


Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ

So you propose that we just left afghanistan to be a free area for the Al Qaeda to train an organize. Not to mention the propaganda value they would get from having their ideas of a cowardly america confirmed because we didnt attack their central bases and operation in Afghanistan after an outrageus act like 911.. Finally what makes you thibk they would try just asnother 911? They  arent stupid they would know that was a one sdhot deal that exploited a single type of security weakness in the USA. They were working on other attasck types and developing new ideas all the time safely in Afghanistan.


Trouble is Grun, we were in a tight spot after 9/11. We had to show the public of doing something decisive. Afghanistan was the sacrificial lamb of a country we had to "show" the American people that we're doing something.
They were going through their own civil war and were ripe for an overthrow. The Taliban had their hands full against the Northern Alliance. Trouble is, what reports are true and what's propaganda?
I just don't buy into every report that comes out of "sources".

Those terrorists of 9/11 were staying in the US and Canada, some trained here on how to fly (they didn't do that in Afghanistan).

The pieces of the puzzle just don't fit for me. I don't have the leap of faith of believing 100% what my government tells me as true. Too many times there seems to be a possible ulterior motive behind them. BTW, that holds true for any govt.

Well, I've got some projects to do and errands to run. Be back later.
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. ... Bertrand Russell

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #93 on: January 28, 2005, 03:08:15 PM »
I didnt call you stupid, I said it was stupid of you to say it.  There is a difference.

Afhganistan was used to plan, coordibate and develop this idea and others. Though 911 is brilliantly simple in concept the actual exacution and implementation are very difficult and in fact the operation took years to put together. I  think you greatly underestimate the impoprtance of that secure base, one safe from police inbtervention, one ideolgically compatible with Al Qeda policies and one politically agreeable to supporting Bin Laden.

As for the war itself, this IS NOT Iraq, pretty much everry meaningful government on earth agreed it was the right thing to do.  Lets also not forget the world did ask the Taliban to turn Bin Laden over, they refused.

So the issue now is what do you think should have been done? Tell me, if we couldnt go into a hostile nation Afghanistan to attack or capture the people who carried out 911 then when ever is war "justfied?" Why not just get rid of the military all together, because if we cant use it to fight against those who attacked us on 911 then we might as well scrap the whole thing because we can never use it.

That is, of course, if you still belive that Al Qaeda were the ones behind 911, which you leave some doubt about in your last post.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2005, 03:18:47 PM by GRUNHERZ »

Offline OneWordAnswer

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Make Iran Make the 1st Move
« Reply #94 on: January 28, 2005, 06:47:25 PM »

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #95 on: January 28, 2005, 07:06:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
Nuclear blast.


If there was any doubt about your hatred for this country I think that you just erased it in the minds of many Americans here GS...

Offline SaburoS

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« Reply #96 on: January 28, 2005, 07:24:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I didnt call you stupid, I said it was stupid of you to say it.  There is a difference.


Where all we deal with on a BBS is the printed word, it's the same thing. Can it as it's not necessary.

Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Afhganistan was used to plan, coordibate and develop this idea and others. Though 911 is brilliantly simple in concept the actual exacution and implementation are very difficult and in fact the operation took years to put together. I  think you greatly underestimate the impoprtance of that secure base, one safe from police inbtervention, one ideolgically compatible with Al Qeda policies and one politically agreeable to supporting Bin Laden.

As for the war itself, this IS NOT Iraq, pretty much everry meaningful government on earth agreed it was the right thing to do.  Lets also not forget the world did ask the Taliban to turn Bin Laden over, they refused.

So the issue now is what do you think should have been done? Tell me, if we couldnt go into a hostile nation Afghanistan to attack or capture the people who carried out 911 then when ever is war "justfied?" Why not just get rid of the military all together, because if we cant use it to fight against those who attacked us on 911 then we might as well scrap the whole thing because we can never use it.

That is, of course, if you still belive that Al Qaeda were the ones behind 911, which you leave some doubt about in your last post.


If these attackers were representing Afghanistan and attacking us on its behalf, gloves are off. Total war time.
But that's not what happened.
What training did these 9/11 terrorists receive in Afghanistan that trained them for their attack?
First, I'd expect us to bump up our intelligence services to find out exactly who and where all the alledged perpetrators were, bring them in for trial to determine guilt. I'd also find out the motive for such an attack.
What I wouldn't do is invade another country for what might be. Too many innocent people getting killed that way. We have a responsibility as a super power to be damn sure of what we're doing before invading another sovereign nation.
The they might be, could be just isn't a strong enough argument to put at risk our American and Allied soldier's lives.
It'll cost a lot less in dollars and more important innocent lives lost.

Give me a range of lives lost in Afghanistan:
Afghanistan civillians.
Afghanistan combatants.
US soldiers.
Allied Soldiers.

How about the cost $:

We still don't have Bin Laden in custody. I'd say this invasion was an error in judgement.
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. ... Bertrand Russell

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Make Iran Make the 1st Move
« Reply #97 on: January 28, 2005, 07:29:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SaburoS


If these attackers were representing Afghanistan and attacking us on its behalf, gloves are off. Total war time.
But that's not what happened.
What training did these 9/11 terrorists receive in Afghanistan that trained them for their attack?
First, I'd expect us to bump up our intelligence services to find out exactly who and where all the alledged perpetrators were, bring them in for trial to determine guilt. I'd also find out the motive for such an attack.
What I wouldn't do is invade another country for what might be. Too many innocent people getting killed that way. We have a responsibility as a super power to be damn sure of what we're doing before invading another sovereign nation.
The they might be, could be just isn't a strong enough argument to put at risk our American and Allied soldier's lives.
It'll cost a lot less in dollars and more important innocent lives lost.

Give me a range of lives lost in Afghanistan:
Afghanistan civillians.
Afghanistan combatants.
US soldiers.
Allied Soldiers.

How about the cost $:

We still don't have Bin Laden in custody. I'd say this invasion was an error in judgement.


You know you are right, thanks for changing my mind.

We should have sent the FBI to serve an arrest warrant on Bin Laden at one of his Taliban governrnt sponsored training camps after we conducted a thurough investigation and interviews of all parties involved.

For over three years I thought that military action against Bin Laden and the Taliban who willingly sheltered and protected him was the correct chourse of action but now I know better.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2005, 07:31:44 PM by GRUNHERZ »

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Make Iran Make the 1st Move
« Reply #98 on: January 28, 2005, 07:47:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
America wiping out Iran with nuclear fire, and once and for all teaches humanity the price of the use of WMD is anti-American?

If there was any doubt about your lack of understanding and emotional restraint I think that you just erased it in the minds of many here Grun...


It was you who said that a nuclear blast on US soil was prefereable to a limited US attack on Iran.
 
As for your second paragraph, about my emotional restraint and understanding ans whatnot. I guess you are just one of the countless nuanced euro thinkers who automatically assume that I support an attack on Iran (which I certainly do not). SHOCK HORROR SURPRISE!!!  I dont think attacking Iran is the right thing to do considering their internal politics now...  

Anyway..

But you ceratinly seem to find nuclear attacks on the USA preferable to conventinal limited attacks on Iran...

Maybe you are the one with emotinal restraint problems, no?  Especially with that gross hyperboloc distortion where you transform his idea of limited attacks in the USA wiping out Iran with nuclear hellfire or whatver you said...
« Last Edit: January 28, 2005, 07:53:52 PM by GRUNHERZ »

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #99 on: January 28, 2005, 07:58:12 PM »
Rude:

Which would you prefer? Smaller preventative ops into Iran or Syria.....or would you prefer the US response to a nuclear blast on US soil? I assure you, the price of the latter scenario would be much greater.....your call

GS:

Nuclear Blast

Thats all I read of your discussion, what was missed?

Nice how you ignore that I actually oppose an attack on Iran, must be hard to accept that when you build people up as such caricatures of what you need them to be..
« Last Edit: January 28, 2005, 08:02:12 PM by GRUNHERZ »

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #100 on: January 28, 2005, 08:08:31 PM »
Yes, no way can prefereing a nuclear attack on america be considered anti american.

No way can transforming Rude's idea of "limited attacks on Iran" into "wpiing out Iran with nuclear hellfire" be considered anti american bias...

Offline SaburoS

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« Reply #101 on: January 28, 2005, 08:11:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
You know you are right, thanks for changing my mind.

We should have sent the FBI to serve an arrest warrant on Bin Laden at one of his Taliban governrnt sponsored training camps after we conducted a thurough investigation and interviews of all parties involved.

For over three years I thought that military action against Bin Laden and the Taliban who willingly sheltered and protected him was the correct chourse of action but now I know better.


Nice sarcasm and spin.

How about we locate his precise location and then send in the military for a surgical removal. Then hold a trial.

Invading another country and killing/destroying anything that COULD be the enemy just isn't a just way to wage this type of war.

You care to answer the following (use your sources)?

Quote
Give me a range of lives lost in Afghanistan:
Afghanistan civillians.
Afghanistan combatants.
US soldiers.
Allied Soldiers.

How about the cost $:

We still don't have Bin Laden in custody. I'd say this invasion was an error in judgement.
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. ... Bertrand Russell

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Make Iran Make the 1st Move
« Reply #102 on: January 28, 2005, 08:15:20 PM »
So we just have to get Bin Laden? One man and this is over?

Or do we have to do hundreds of precision military strikes to get all the key people one by one and then take them to trial.

When do continous "precisin military" strikes become war? Or how long does the Taliban tolerate these incursions into their national territory before they start fighting back and we have to shoot them too?  

Well at least we have got you to admit that military action was unavoidable once the Taliban refused to hand Bin Laden over.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2005, 08:17:50 PM by GRUNHERZ »

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #103 on: January 28, 2005, 08:22:10 PM »
And simply placing the empasis on:

Rude: "Which would you prefer? Smaller preventative ops into Iran or Syria.....or would you prefer the US response to a nuclear blast on US soil?"

GS:

"Nuclear Blast"

He posed a simple question and you answered.

He gave you a choice between two potions:

1) Limited conventila attcaks on Iran  

or:

2) US response to a nuclear attcak on US soil

Your respose consiting oly of the words  "Nuclear attack" clearly shows that you prefer an option where nuclear weapons are used.  Since thats higly unlikely in option 1 it must mean you prefer option 2.

It's clear that you prefer a nuclear blast on us soil over limited attacks on Iran. Which is pretty sick.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2005, 08:29:48 PM by GRUNHERZ »

Offline SaburoS

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« Reply #104 on: January 28, 2005, 08:28:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So we just have to get Bin Laden? One man and this is over?

Or do we have to do hundreds of precision military strikes to get all the key people one by one and then take them to trial.

When do continous "precisin military" strikes become war? Or how long does the Taliban tolerate these incursions into their national territory before they start fighting back and we have to shoot them too?  

Well at least we have got you to admit that military action was unavoidable once the Taliban refused to hand Bin Laden over.


I never did rule out the military, never have. What I disagree with is how it's used.
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. ... Bertrand Russell