Author Topic: DON'T MISS THIS THREAD on energy!  (Read 2485 times)

Offline Lephturn

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« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2001, 02:41:00 PM »
Soda,

The way I understand it is thus:

The extra E to get to max speed (say 375) from a slower speed (say 200 Mph) comes from the engine.  The question is, does the propellor/airframe combination convert that extra power from the engine into energy better at a higher speed?  If the answer is yes, then a 0G dive to that magical "most efficient" speed, and a subsequent gentle zoom to maintain that speed, would convert that extra engine power into energy at a faster rate than flying at a speed below the magic number.

The only question to be answered is whether a higher speed can more efficiently convert engine power to energy, and whether it's enough to compensate for the E you may lose in the pull-up into zoom.  Badboy will get time to do some tests and charts at some point, and then he we'll know for sure.  

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Offline Dwarf

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« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2001, 03:12:00 PM »
Soda -

My take on it is essentially the same as Lephturn's.

There should be two basic choices.  Best prop efficiency speed and best airframe efficiency speed.

The overall solution will probably be the best compromise between those two speeds.  But, it's also possible that absolutely  maximizing power transfer or absolutely minimizing drag proves to be the vital component.  Ideally, for a few aircraft at least, the two basic speeds will be close enough together that there isn't much to choose between them.

Practically speaking, most folks will just dive until they feel they have enough speed, level until the angle back to the bad guy looks right, ease back up to him, and start ripping his belly open once they get to decent guns range.

Dwarf



[This message has been edited by Dwarf (edited 02-08-2001).]

Offline Badboy

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« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2001, 04:13:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Dwarf:
I'm not suggesting anything.  I'm merely pointing out to you the actual numbers that really apply to the situation you propose.
Dwarf

You merely pointed out that an increase in speed of about 25ft/s would cause drag to increase by a magnitude of 25625, when in fact it only increases by a little more than 100lbs. That's about 200 times smaller than your figure. An increase in drag of the magnitude you stated is nonsense.

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Offline Dwarf

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« Reply #33 on: February 08, 2001, 04:38:00 PM »
I've really got to stop responding to this nonsense.

Exactly what part of  component drag don't you understand?  Exactly what part of Coefficient of Drag don't you understand?  Exactly what part of V^2 don't you understand?

Dwarf
{For those who haven't yet walked away in utter frustration]
To reiterate the bone of contention here:
We've already agreed that for the stated case of 2 aircraft both at max speed, diving accomplishes nothing.
We've already agreed that when both aircraft are still accelerating, one can do so faster by diving than the other can by remaining level.
We've even agreed that when the diving aircraft gains enough of a speed advantage he can ease back up to the fleer and rip his guts out.

What's still at issue is whether it's possible for a prop aircraft to enter an evolution where he descends from an altitude and then returns to it having gained Energy in the process.  I say no.  He says yes.
[EDIT] More correctly stated... that he can return to that altitude having gained more energy than if he had continued accelerating in a straight line, although I'll stand by my no the other way, too. {/EDIT]

He claims to have data supporting his allegation.  We haven't seen it yet.



[This message has been edited by Dwarf (edited 02-08-2001).]

Offline Soda

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« Reply #34 on: February 08, 2001, 04:52:00 PM »
Lept/Dwarf,
  I was thinking along the same lines as you both, basically, you are finding what would be considered a "sweet spot" where you thrust is maximized (engine most efficiently converting hp to thurst through the prop) while also entering a spot where the airframe is performing at a percentage less drag (compared to thrust).  A good mid-high speed accelerator (say from 275-350 )would therefore have an advantage getting to that mid speed as soon as possible and using that higher speed acceleration to catch a plane that has a more linear (or exponential) drag increase.

The shallow dive makes total sense, unloading the aircraft, finding the "sweet spot" also is understandable.  On the flip side, drag, the enemy of this procedure, increases with speed, as well as the fact that all the maneuvers (save the initial 0 G pushover) occur at higher speeds and thus the drag penalty should be higher.  It would take one mighty soft hand on the stick to not completely bleed away all the possible advantage you could get by simply pulling 1G of extra pull-up at the last climb of the chase.

Interesting concept, though I suspect it is VERY dependant on aircraft involved.  I'd still love to see some results of testing Badboy, if you can get around to it.  It sounds like a mighty fine line of performance to walk, but sometimes that's all it takes to bag a kill.

Thanks for your response,

-Soda

Offline Lephturn

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« Reply #35 on: February 08, 2001, 05:08:00 PM »
Yep, this will necessarily be aircraft dependent.  I suspect if it works out anywhere, it's going to work out in the P-51 and the Jug.

I'm hoping on the Jug.  

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Offline Badboy

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« Reply #36 on: February 08, 2001, 05:36:00 PM »
 
Quote

Ok, Lets backup again. Nuku started that thread by asking how "when both aircraft are at their maximum speed", the pursuing aircraft was able to catch him utilizing a series of dives.

How was your asserion that under other circumstances you believed it was possible, in any way responsive to his question?

Because the guy chasing him had managed to catch him. Had they both been at maximum speed that shouldn't have happened, the most likely alternative was that the original assumption of maximum speed was at fault.

 
Quote

He was asking why a particular apple was rotten. You started telling him about oranges. Why use his legitimate question to confuse the issue by introducing a whole different set of circumstances?

The original question was circular. "If an aircraft is at its top speed, how can it go any faster?" It can't, the conclusion is a point stated in the premise. If the aircraft actually did go faster, the aircraft could not have originally been at its top speed. I genuinely believed that must have been the case. No other situation would have explained the outcome. Nuku wanted to know how it could have happened and I did my best to explain it.  

 
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Simple. You had a theory you wanted to expound and you'd written an article about that theory you wanted to flog.

I'm not sure what you mean by flog? If you mean to sell for money, that's not true. Everything I've done or written about Aces High as been 100% free and gratis. Those articles were born of a desire to help others, no reward, other than perhaps a little kudos has ever been anticipated. However in this case, I must say I regret ever posting it. You may enjoy these endless diatribes, I do not.


 
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I don't know about anybody else, but it's self eveident to me, that if two aircraft are accellerating from a speed well below their max, one aircraft can do so faster than the other by diving and then using that speed and geometry to shoot down the other aircraft.

You are now agreeing the procedure is correct! That's amazing, you have been arguing all this time that it won't work, and here you state that it is self evident.

 
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I think most of us can get that without fancy charts or an article, or hijacking Nuku's thread to inflate your ego.

Actually I was trying to be helpful. I have always believed that you only get out of life as much as you put in. When I enjoy something I'm doing I believe in giving something back. That's what I thought I was doing... Now I'm not so sure it was the right thing. Try to help, and look what happens. I have a feeling my first two Aces High articles may be my last.


Badboy


[This message has been edited by Badboy (edited 02-08-2001).]
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Offline Dwarf

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« Reply #37 on: February 08, 2001, 05:45:00 PM »
To help everyone understand the process at immediate issue here -

D = (Cd(density/2)Area)V^2

Let's take one density - say 8,000 feet = 0.001869 in a standard atmosphere.  
Let's take one aircraft component - a wing.
Let's assign our wing an area of 250 sq ft.
Let's assign our wing a Coefficient of Drag = 0.0006.

Now the first part of the Drag Equation looks like this:

0.0006(0.001869/2)250 = 0.000140175

This becomes the constant to use to test against Velocity.

Using the already stated V of 500 fps and 525 fps:

First Result:  0.000140175 x 250000 = 35.04375
Second Result: 0.000140175 x 275625 = 38.63573438

38.6 - 35 = 3.6
3.6/0.00014 = 25714
which is the difference in magnitude of the two results based on our constant.
Remarkably close to 25625 for rounding off the results.

Dwarf
[EDIT] NOTE; I used the bare square footage of the wing to keep things simple.  
An actual wing would have a wetted area 2+ times the planform area.  
Exactly how big the + would be is dependent on the exact profile of the wing.




[This message has been edited by Dwarf (edited 02-08-2001).]

Offline Andy Bush

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« Reply #38 on: February 08, 2001, 06:15:00 PM »
Dwarf

You have displayed some mighty fine book learnin'.

With regard to your statement about jets and their response to 'stalls and spins', this knowledge comes better from hands on experience rather than reading some aero text.

So, how much actual jet fighter time do you have? Got any experience in high AOA behavior? Ever rode thru a departure (BTW, that's what we call a 'spin' entry these days)? What exactly happens when you stall a fighter when pulling G?

Anyone can argue theory. How much practical experience do you have?

Andy


Offline Dwarf

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« Reply #39 on: February 08, 2001, 06:39:00 PM »
 
Quote

Because the guy chasing him had managed to catch him. Had they both been at maximum speed that shouldn't have happened, the most likely alternative was that the original assumption of maximum speed was at fault.

OK.  I am more suspicious of sim flight models than you are.  My impression was that given the stated situation, the stated result came from a flaw in the program.


 
Quote

The original question was circular. "If an aircraft is at its top speed, how can it go any faster?" It can't, the conclusion is a point stated in the premise. If the aircraft actually did go faster, the aircraft could not have originally been at its top speed. I genuinely believed that must have been the case. No other situation would have explained the outcome. Nuku wanted to know how it could have happened and I did my best to explain it.

Guess I trust people more and programs less than you do.  

 
Quote

I'm not sure what you mean by flog? If you mean to sell for money, that's not true. Everything I've done or written about Aces High as been 100% free and gratis. Those articles were born of a desire to help others, no reward, other than perhaps a little kudos has ever been anticipated. However in this case, I must say I regret ever posting it. You may enjoy these endless diatribes, I do not.

Sorry you see it that way.  


 
Quote


You are now agreeing the procedure is correct! That's amazing, you have been arguing all this time that it won't work, and here you state that it is self evident.

No, I disagree with your assertion that there is some magical evolution that will allow you (while in pursuit) to descend from an altitude and then return to that altitude having gained Energy.

Gaining speed faster diving than another plane can by remaining level was never the issue.  Energy gain was (and is) the issue.


   
Quote

Actually I was trying to be helpful. I have always believed that you only get out of life as much as you put in. When I enjoy something I'm doing I believe in giving something back. That's what I thought I was doing... Now I'm not so sure it was the right thing. Try to help, and look what happens. I have a feeling my first two Aces High articles may be my last.


Badboy

I think that's true.  Based on your other article, you have very valuable insights to offer.

I hope you don't let the fact that your enthusiasm got the best of you and I thwacked you upside the head for it, diminish that.

Dwarf
[EDIT] Now, compile your data and prove me wrong if you can.  I'll be more than happy to congratulate you if you do.

[This message has been edited by Dwarf (edited 02-08-2001).]

Offline Dwarf

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« Reply #40 on: February 08, 2001, 07:16:00 PM »
Andy -

Nice mousetrap, but I already said I'm not going there.  You're more than welcome to be stud duck.

As far as what happens at departure, that depends on the plane.  No two models behave identically.

Given your credentials, maybe you care to share what happened to the Tu-144 at the Paris airshow some years ago, when it was forced to avoid a photo-recon Mirage.

Dwarf

[This message has been edited by Dwarf (edited 02-08-2001).]

Offline Badboy

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« Reply #41 on: February 08, 2001, 08:12:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Dwarf:

First Result:  0.000140175 x 250000 = 35.04375
Second Result: 0.000140175 x 275625 = 38.63573438

38.6 - 35 = 3.6
3.6/0.00014 = 25714
which is the difference in magnitude of the two results based on our constant.

Nope, according to those calculations the difference in the magnitude of the drag would be 3.6 that's all.

25625 is only the difference in the square of the airspeeds, and you never had to go to such lengths to get it, it is just 525^2 less the 500^2. You previously stated the difference in the magnitude of the drag was 25625, as you have again here, and that of course is utter nonsense.

However, if you take 25625, you can use it to find the true difference in the magnitude of the drag, like this 25625*0.00014 = 3.6 as before. Perhaps that's what you meant, if so it certainly is not what you said, and many of your previous misguided statements were based on it... So what part of that didn't you understand?


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Offline Andy Bush

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« Reply #42 on: February 08, 2001, 08:32:00 PM »
Dwarf

I'm not interested in being the ' stud duck' or anything else. I am interested in knowing where your expertise comes from.

>>Given your credentials, maybe you care to share what happened to the Tu-144 at the Paris airshow some years ago, when it was forced to avoid a photo-recon Mirage.<<

Heck if I know. I wasn't there. Those that were are dead. The presumption as far as I know is that the Tu pilot broke up the jet in trying to avoid a mid-air.

What does that have to do with this thread?

Let's try something simple. Assume you are flying a F-4 (hard wing) and a F-104 at 300KIAS in level flight. You aggressively pull the stick full aft with no aileron input. What happens in each case?

One other. You are in a hard turn at 300KIAS in each airplane. You aggressively apply opposite aileron while maintaining your G in order to reverse your turn. What happens?

Try to be specific...I imagine the folks here would like to know how these jets handle.

Andy


Offline Lephturn

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« Reply #43 on: February 08, 2001, 08:33:00 PM »
Badboy, I hope you don't let this discourage you from writing articles!

I know there are a lot of us that appreciate your work.  Whether your theory is proven to work or not is largely irrelevant in my opinion.  I think many have learned a great deal from it, regardless of the outcome.  I know I certainly have.  Most of those folks are not going to even see this thread, let alone venture to step into the middle of this discussion.

I hope this thread will die now.  It's quite clear you two have different positions, and I think you've both made it plenty clear what those are.  Nothing is getting settled by continued discussion.  The only way to prove or disprove this theory will be to test it.  I think Badboy will likely do that at some point, and we'll reap the great benefit of his hard-earned data regardless.  I find it sad that he is the only one who has promised to actually do some testing and post the results at some point.  Think how much information could have been gathered in the time spent arguing on the board.  Sigh.

At the very worst case, Badboy's theory will prove to be wrong in the long term, and we'll have learned something about E and prop fighters.  In the best case we will all have gained new insight and information we can use to be better virtual pilots.  The bottom line here is that there is nothing at stake except pressing the Fly button again.  There is no need to keep beating this horse, it died about 10 posts ago.  

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Offline Badboy

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« Reply #44 on: February 09, 2001, 11:19:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Lephturn:
At the very worst case, Badboy's theory will prove to be wrong in the long term, and we'll have learned something about E and prop fighters.

I don't agree that is the worst case, please allow me to explian... The issue seems to be, can the attacker gain energy more quickly than the defender? The answer is yes… by using best energy transfer.  That begs the question, why does it work? That seems to be where folk get stuck... Ok, let’s review the facts.

1)  It is possible to draw Ps (P sub s) curves for every aircraft, regardless of type.

2) It is possible to superimpose those curve onto Es (E sub s) curve.

3) The maximum energy state along any Ps curve is where it is tangent to the Es curve.

4) Such a point will always exist, regardless of aircraft type.

5) That point will lie somewhere between the best climb speed and the top speed for that alt.

6) The speed at that point yields the best energy transfer, call it V sub t or just Vt.

7) Best energy transfer gives you maximum energy gain in minimum time.

8) Every powered aircraft, regardless of type has such a Vt speed.

9) It can be used to gain an energy/time advantage over an aircraft that doesn’t use it.

10) If you start a fight below that speed energy transfer will be optimised by diving to it at 0g.

Those are facts!

The only remaining question I hope to resolve is what are the actual Vt speeds for each aircraft. That, in my opinion, is the last remaining piece of the jigsaw. Unfortunately my current schedule means it may be a while before I can return to that problem. The worst case scenario is that we may find that some aircraft are not able to take advantage of it.

Meanwhile The simple fact is that it does work. A lot of people have already confirmed it and have been doing it for a long time already. It is also rather easy to confirm. It doesn't just work in Aces High, it also works in Warbirds, Air Warrior, MSCFS, and EAW... Infact almost every other WWII sim since Chuck Yeager's Air Combat.

The Aerodynamic theory explained above predicts that it works, and the flight models of most of the sim's that replicate it are not so shabby that something that major would be wrong.

Another issue I want to consider when I have the Vt speeds at hand, is how the above procedure for optimising energy transfer should be tempered by the alternative strategy of optimising closure, which would involve abandoning Vt near the critical altitude to achieve maximum true airspeed. That raises another new issue… Personally, given the choice of having my Es as altitude or Speed, I tend to prefer speed, but it is a delicate balance and can be subjective because many pilots prefer to always be higher with correspondingly higher total energy, but that can be a problem in the above situation because the defender loses a lot of energy when forced into their break turn. My personal preference would be not to follow a best energy transfer solution to its conclusion. So it should make an interesting, perhaps contentious article.

 
Quote
In the best case we will all have gained new insight and information we can use to be better virtual pilots.  The bottom line here is that there is nothing at stake except pressing the Fly button again.  There is no need to keep beating this horse, it died about 10 posts ago.    

Amen to that!!

Badboy
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