H&R tactics or extend useless offensive maneuver ?

[terracota]

Hello everybody,
in those past days I re-readed andy bush articles at simhq,.
I founded a problem that is happenning to me about the h&r tactic, or extend after my attack on an enemy plane .
I tried all the things that andy explain there concerned to the h&r tactic everything works fine to me when you need to disengage after the dive , ie. more enemy planes comes etc, but if the figth is vrs 1 enemy and hes flying a plane with a good acceleration, turn an climb, I messed all.
I dive , extend, zoom, turn and when rdy to the next attack the enemy has gained some E because he tryied to catch me an he gained somne speed too at my extension maneuver, so when Im ready to re-attack, he:
1) will change directions to head on me to denied his 6 angle. and look the h2h shot

2) if I better try a front quarter attack ,
I founded is very dangerous because he have E to try the h2h and generally I die this way because my f4ud guns sucks at this point,
what
I do to attack by hes front quarter , is when Im comming back I try to get some lateral separation, when I see him at my 10-11 or 1-2 o'clock I hard turn and dive on him but he have the E to turn too climb and search for the h2h shoot.
so what Im missing? is there something I dont understand jet?,or Im doing wrong? I just found it usefull to disengage vrs. an slow plane.
not like an ofensive maneuver.

I did that the other day vrs. an 190 that was bouncing on me he extended them re-entered figth but I has gained speed trying to catch him at his extend , and he tries first to search my 6 I never give it to him, them he tries a frontal attack I looked for the h2h shot, and both get killed  , ,I think I won more because he was the attacker and he had the all advantage, because I was flying low an slow with my Dhog. what this guy should do to kill me?

sorry for the long post, but my english sucks and I dont find the short and correct words to explain it  

any help????

 

[Lephturn]

Heya.  

Well, the first issue here is that you are trying to use Hit and Run using an F4U.  Guess what, it is one of the worst accelerating planes in the game.  That means that you will get 1 maybe 3 passes in before you lose your energy advantage.  It also means that smart pilots will take the head-on or front quarter shot if you let them since they are at a disadvantage.

The first thing I would do is Boom and Zoom instead.  Use the vertical Luke!  The F4U is a bad accelerating plane, but it zoom climbs very well, so use that!  The Hog also has good low-speed maneuverability which allows it to get "over the top" in vertical maneuvers when other planes would stall out.  The Hog is one of the BEST pure energy fighters in the game, so if you start with an energy advantage you can maintain it with smart flying in the vertical.  Doing long extensions in it will get you killed faster IMHO.

If you do execute a good extension and are comeing back to the bandit, DO NOT take the HO.  The bandit with less E will take it, since he doesn't have many options.  You should not take it, it's a low percentage shot for you considering you have more E.  You need to merge just below his nose and execute a jink at D1.4 or so, then do a nice vertical merge.  At this point I assume you still have a decent E advantage.  When you go up the bogey will either go for the HO, in which case you gain both E and angles, or try to go vertical with you.  Your superior E should let you win in either case if you use the vertical and have enough of an energy advantage going into the fight.

Remember, the success of hit and run type tactics will depend a lot on the plane type.  I'll use Hit and Run in my P-47 vs. a Zeke, since I am much faster and have better guns.  However, versus any decent accelerating plane in the arena I'll go vertical every time, since (like the F4U) the Jug doesn't accelerate well, but zooms very well.

------------------
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs  http://www.flyingpigs.com


"My P-47 is a pretty good ship, she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip.
Just thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip, always got me through so far."
 - Steve Earl

[Andy Bush]

terracota

When I wrote the BnZ articles, I separated the maneuver into two types...the Hit and Run (HnR) and the Hit and Climb (HnC).

In the HnR discussion, I emphasized the absolute need to have a significant acceleration and top speed advantage over the bandit. Only then would the HnR fighter be able to gain the needed horizontal separation during his extension. The example I used was the Flying Tiger P-40 vs Japanese Nate.

In AH, the typical performance characteristics of the planes tend to make them unsuitable for a HnR strategy since their acceleration and speed profiles are similar enough to deny the extending fighter a significant energy advantage.

Instead, I think a HnC is a better maneuver in this sim, as Lephturn said in his post. If you can force your target to turn hard (and thereby lose energy) as you make a pass on him, you should be able to have about a +100mph (or more) advantage which you can then use to HnC with.

Your English is just fine! And your maneuver outcomes sound OK also...it's just that this sim's choice of aircraft may not be the best to try a HnR with.

Let me know if I can help any more.

Andy

[terracota]

well nice to both of you  

thats why my extension maneuver never works like should be, before re-read andy's articles I extended all the time if my enemy was a mustang I extended too  , so now I have a more clear concept,
so but an extend maneuver could be a good escape manuever when you r in trouble no?
ie. you ready to dive to the enemy them you realize that more enemies come, them I should dive extend and run to home or friends no?

thanks for help guys  
you rooock!!!!

[Lephturn]

Again, whether or not you can use an extension to escape a fight will depend on your relative energy states and the capabilities of the planes.

Let me give you an example.  If you are flying a Zeke, you had better kill EVERYBODY because you can't out run anything.    If you are in a plane that has a top speed, dive, or climb advantage, you MAY be able to use that.  You will have to judge the relative energy states of the other planes around you before you try any extension.  Even a Zeke can catch you in a dive if you are in a Hog and both of you are at 150 MPH.  Now if you can get some separation you know your Hog will have a higher terminal speed than the zeke, so you may be able to escape if you can avoid his guns for the short term.  If you try this same diving extension (best to start it with a 0 G dive) with a P51 or an FW on your tail, you will not have enough of an advantage to make the escape.

I use this in my P47 lots.  Not too many planes can survive a 500 MPH dive, so if I have the altitude and I get in trouble, I'll execute a 0G diving extension and keep diving until I pass 450 Mph.  I'll then start to slowly level out, trying to keep the Jug at that magical 500 Mph number.  I'll do this pointed for home of course.    If I had any kind of separation from the other guys, I will normally escape.  Of course, if I try this versus a Hog or a Pony, or even an FW, I will likely get caught and eaten for lunch.    You must know the relative strengths and weaknesses of the planes in AH to choose your tactics.

------------------
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs  http://www.flyingpigs.com


"My P-47 is a pretty good ship, she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip.
Just thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip, always got me through so far."
 - Steve Earl

[Andy Bush]

terracota

Yes, the HnR tactic can be used to escape a bandit that is turning to chase you...as long as you have a faster airplane!

In AH, a P-51 vs P-51 matchup would not be a good choice for a HnR strategy if you planned on re-engaging. This is because the bandit P-51 will be able to close the separation enough to deny you the ability to turn back with an energy advantage. If you just wanted to run away, you could probably get away with it as long as you did not turn and allow the bandit to arc you.

In real life, we considered these things! Here is a diagram I made when I was a Fighter Weapons School instructor. It plots out a typical extension that begins with a high angle gun shot attempt. The F-104 pilots takes his shot and then turns and extends. We wanted to know how far he could get away from a MiG-21 before the MiG could turn to put the 104 in his pipper. As the graph shows, we concluded the 104 pilot could expect to be out of IR missile range at the completion of his turn...if he flew the jet properly!

 

Andy

[Gustav]

This is great useful stuff, guys! Thanks!

There is one question I would like t ask though...

When you talk about zoom climbing after an attack, are you talking about going up as far as the craft will go ie until it wants to stall at minimum speed? Or do you choose an airspeed that gives you enough e to complete the over the top maneuver? Still trying to decide which is best..

<S>

Gustav

[Andy Bush]

Gustav

Not to sound silly, but you should go up only as far as necessary.

OK...so just what is "as far as necessary"?

First of all, you should only attempt a vertical extension (a 'boom and zoom') if you have an energy advantage over the bandit. This can be expressed two ways. One, the bandit does not have the energy to get his nose up in the first place...in this situation, your vertical move is more of a yo-yo. Second, the bandit can get his nose up but does not have the energy to remain in the climb as long as you.

How do you know which is which?

You start with your initial attack. Ask yourself two things. What type of aircraft is the bandit. This will tell you if he is a good energy fighter or not. What closure do you have relative to your indicated speed? If you are fast and closing slowly, then you should assume he is at a fairly high energy state. If you are closing rapidly, then he is slow.

Then, take into consideration the length of time the bandit has been maneuvering. Was he been turning hard in a previous maneuver when you bounced him? Or was he in level, non-maneuvering flight. In the first case, you may presume his energy state is lower than it would be in the second.

Knowing these things gives you an idea how far you may have to zoom...since your zoom height is determined by his zoom capability.

Next, you must combine this line of reasoning with the absolute need to keep a tally in your climb. You cannot just zoom blindly for a predetermined amount of altitude and then start looking for the bandit.

So you go into the zoom with an expectation of how far you may have to climb based upon the bandit's energy state. Then you keep the tally.

Now comes the pulldown point. The easiest cue is when you see the bandit begin his reversal...at that time, you pull down regardless of your speed.

A second possibility (and not one I like to be in) is when you have to pull down before the bandit has begun his reversal. Why would you do this? Because you are running out of speed...you need to retain control of your plane before you become a falling leaf act!

In this case, you turn on the stall horn or hammerhead if you can perform that maneuver. Turn to point at the bandit. Go for a HO if you want. Otherwise, minimize the lateral separation to deny him a lead turn and blow thru. Keep your nose down and extend out for speed. Then decide whether or not you want to re-engage.

Andy

[Gustav]

This is exactly what I've been looking for! Many thanks.

<S>
Gustav

[terracota]

Same here GUSTAV  

thanks to all for the help
<S!>

Andy :
now I have collectionn of your graphics  
thise ones roock

[Andy Bush]

And a thanks to you, Terracota!

Your questions are exactly what we need to stimulate discussion. I can tell you for certain that there are many other folks out there that have the very same questions as you do...this way everyone gets to share the info.

Keep the questions coming!

Andy

[humble]

Great stuff as always Andy, I'd add one observation to this thread...often the big difference I see is the extension. Usually the "Aces" zoom and maximize vertical seperation as quickly as possible. Less experienced pilots go OUT then UP...for some reason this is much less efficient and they end up as hanging clay pidgions....caught at top of reverse. My advice as a trainer was always...if you cant go UP....JUST GO

[StSanta]

An additional point relevant for AH.

If you want to rope a dope, it is essential that you turn nose down *before* your enemy - i.e you need to be highly accurate when it comes to judging your enemy's e state - if you do it too early, you'll end up with a HO. Too late, and he'll be able to accelerate, making the shot difficult.

So the key to success is having a buffer to work with - say yer zooming, d is 1.4, you can zoom for a tad bit longer if needed. Enemy nose is pointed  at you. You go nose down, point aircraft towards enemy. At d1.2-d1.1, it's still a HO. Then the enemy plane tips over and you should have enough speed to get a good shot.

Of course, doing this against planes with excellent low speed handling such as the Spit, N1K and hogs, is quite dangerous. made worse by the d1.0 kill wonder Hispanos.

It's much safer against LW planes - except the G10 which can hang in its prop for a significant amount of time thanks to the massive engine..

I rarely get it just right - often it's not even possible since if you turn nose down, you'll get a HO. If you don't, you'll turn nose down at the same time, and the enemy will dive for speed. But when succesful, the rope-a-dope is highly satisfying  .

------------------
StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
while(!bishRookQueue.isEmpty() && loggedOn()){
30mmDeathDIEDIEDIE(bishRookQueue.removeFront());
System.out.println("LW pilots are superior");
myPlane.performVictoryRoll();
}