High Angle shooting

[54Ed]

Hi all.  Having a bit of trouble adapting my shooting style to AH, specifically high aspect angle shooting.  

I'm a BnZ'er by preference, so I tend to find myself shooting at N1Ks, zekes, and yaks as they pull break turns across my front.  I'm used to this, and in other sims I just roll my wings to match theirs and keep them in my gunsight til point blank range, then give them a good burst.  After that, I usually pull vertical and set up another pass.

Not getting as many hits in AH as I'd like.  I seem to be either losing sight of the target under my nose, or shooting behind the target.  Part of this seems to be net lag; AH is a little jumpier at close range than other sims I've played.  But part of it is my technique, I'm sure.

Anyone have any tips for better shooting in this situation in AH?  Specifically, does anyone monkey with your head position to get better visibility of the target in a high angle tracking shot?  Or do most folks do like I do, which is keep my head centered on the gunsite and try to pull just enough lead without losing the target under my nose?

[Spatula]

AH is a WYSIWYG front end, meaning that if you see it hit the con those packets are sent to the nmes front end (FE). Its all worked out on your FE, so lag doesn't have anything to do with deflection shooting (unless he warps).

As for advice, pick one plane, and master the guns on that. Cannon you'll need to lead more than MGs cause MGs shoot straighter. Its all practice - getting to the point when you 'just know' it will hit. Use the force. If you find cannon takes too much lead for you to be effective (like myself) fly a 50 cal armed plane like the P38, P47 or P51 (if you dont fly yank iron - then get used to cannons). Hispano seems to shoot straighter than all other cannons.

Second, set you convergence to the point where you score most of your kills. I BnZ, so as a matter of course my closure on the target is normally fast, so i have staggered my convergence, so each gun will 'walk' thru the target - so to speak. I fly P51s most of the time, my conv is set to 400, 420, 440. with 440 the outside guns. On a good gun pass i can drop any fighter in one pass.

No easy solution just experience.

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Overlord Spatula

Real men dont need no stinkin cannons
 

=357th Pony Express=

[This message has been edited by Spatula (edited 11-12-2000).]

[Andy Bush]

54ed

There is no remedy for the problem of estimating the correct lead angle when the issue is visibility over the nose. Other than chopping off the nose! :-)

If we assume that the respective fighter velocities are going to be somewhat similar, then any high angle deflection shot is going to produce a lead angle that may well be outside the physical viewing boundaries of the sight (when the attacker is in-plane with the target).

I deliberately use a bunch of qualifiers when I talk about this subject because the subject is....well...subjective. There is no way to find a 'one size fits all' gunnery solution in this highly dynamic situation ('dynamic' in this sense means a lot of things are changing fast!!).

Projectile ballistics do make a measurable impact on the question. However, it's not a matter of a particular weapon shooting 'straighter'. Instead, it's a function of muzzle velocities. Slow muzzle velocities produce a longer time of flight for a given firing range, and this results in the lead angle being larger than would otherwise be the case.

Additionally, the selected harmonization range (known as 'convergence' in AH) deals only in azimuth corrections, not in elevation corrections. As such, the convergence settings only affects bullet density at a particular range and have nothing to do with lead requirements. As long as we expect that the relative fighter velocities are somewhat similar, then the required lead angle in mils (an angular unit of measurement) stays relatively constant over the typical range of firing opportunities in high angle off situations.

Therefore, convergence has an effect on when you should pull the trigger in range...but has little to no effect on the required lead angle.

In any fighter, it is possible to 'track on the beam', in other words conventionally track in a high angle deflection situation. The extent to which you may do so is a function of two things...visibility over the nose, and the target velocity.

Finally...this is only a sim and may or may not be programmed correctly with regard to real world ballistics. My experience with it is that it is 'close enough'.

But this means that the target may well be below your nose in many high G and/or high angle off situations.

Andy

[54Ed]

Thanks for the answers.  Both of you confirm my experience in other sims.  

What I am fishing for are tricks peculiar to AH.  For instance, would raising your head position for such a shot give you greater visibility over the nose?

Of course you wouldn't be able to see the reticle, but you could estimate by placing the center top of the glass plate on the enemy, for instance.

[Lephturn]

Some folks actually modify their reticle specifically for a higher seat position.  You would have to modify a reticle to put the pipper at the top. and then adjust your seat position so that the bullet stream crossed it at roughly convergence.

The second trick is to watch your G meter.  If you are high-angle deflection shooting you need to try to get close to 0 G's when you shoot.  Then fire ahead of the target and let him fly through the bullet stream.  This won't be very effective in MG armed planes, but the cannon birds can get great results this way.

------------------
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs  http://www.flyingpigs.com


"My P-47 is a pretty good ship, she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip.
Just thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip, always got me through so far."
 - Steve Earl

[eye]

Rember if your fireing wing guns they cross over.

If your super close say 100 yrs a guy can fly right thru both cones of fire.
The same can happen if your convergence is set to 250 and your crossing shot is 400 yrds.
It sounds crazy but they do look like they fly right thru your rounds.

What do you do to fix this prob?
If your in a deflection shot sit.
Aim with the wings guns that are higher.

Especially if you are close.

Fireing in any sit farther than 300 is a pretty tough shot.

In a turn a sure kill shot for me anyways is around 250 yrds.

Useing a 50 cal plane or a fw or niki 300 to 350 is max range.

EYE

[Andy Bush]

Eye

I think your view of the bullet stream is a little off. The gun lines are not like laser beams...each gun produces a pattern of fire about a cenral axis...this is called dispersion...and tends to widen the kill zone.

Convergence is meant to concentrate the separate bullet streams...but the bullet streams are still there. So if the convergence was set up for 300 and the target was at 100, you still have a chance at getting a hit. Not as great as if the target had been at 300...no argument there.

In a wing gun convergence arrangement, the only time where you begin to lose a decent chance of hitting the target at all is at ranges greater than double the convergence range. Why? Because at these ranges, the bullet streams are diverging outwards at a distance greater than the span of the fighter. For that reason, I tend to favor convergence settings at the longer ranges.

As I have said before, convergence is a factor in increasing the probability of getting a hit (by producing a denser area of dispersion)...it has little to do with lead angle.

Andy

[54Ed]

In the army, we call it the cone of fire, because that's what the bullet coverage looks like: a cone with the tip at the barrel and the open circle towards the target.  For each gun, the dispersion pattern grows wider as the range increases, and the bullet density is less.  The convergence is not 6 intersecting lines, but rather 6 converging cones.  The bullet pattern on a flat target would be six overlapping circles, with the circles getting larger as the range increases.  Beyond the convergence setting, the overall pattern would take the shape of a single growing "blob" ... I would think.

[Minotaur]

Ed54;

You might try using this gunsight.  I set it up with the intension of being able to predict lead a little better.

------------------
Mino
The Wrecking Crew

"Best is the trash talk. Severly and viciously going after your enemies, their mothers, and their shabby sheep."
StSanta

[54Ed]

Thanks, I'll try it out.

[Beurling]

I read you article a while back it was ok.

As far as what i said its right on the money.

In a turn going for a turning bandit shoot with the upper gun.

Most planes being chased turn or roll downward to get away.

Shooting and aiming with the upper gun increases the odds for a hit.
Why? Because rounds drop. If you miss with the upper banks of guns you have a good chance the bogie will run into the lower stream of the shot.

As far as shooting with a d convergence of more than 300 i dont do that.

Unless your flying a 50. cal plane or a 1c
Its the wrong way to do it.

I set mine up on all planes to hit at 300d or 250.

If you want to hit on a long shot all you do is aim off to the left or right above the red.


EYE

[Andy Bush]

Eye

Good grief!!

I promise not to tell you how to lay bricks if you promise not to tell me how to harmonize guns. OK?

Andy

[Beurling]

LOL YOU made my day!!!!!!!


BTW i saw in another post you wont tell what name you fly under?

Why?

This is the part where i would check your score board to see if you know what your talking about.AH is not aw3 or wb.

I knew i flew with you in aw3 lol otherwize how would you know what i do for a liveing

This is not a mean post at all towards you but writeing a article about deflection shooting doesent make you a expert.

I have no name to check which is a shame

What i said was right on the money as far as shooting goes.

Btw the if you ever write another article please put in it that slowing your enemy down is the most important part of being a good shot.

A slow enemy is easier to kill with fewer rounds. The shot is easier too.

Any suprise you can add to a fight leads to easy shot situations too

Now just who could you be hmmm

EYE

[Andy Bush]

Eye

Your occupation is posted in your profile.

I have never flown AW.

I answered the question about my call sign in the other post.

I seldom fly AH. When I do, I am positively terrible. I can't manage the views worth a hoot, and I have yet to adjust to the effect of net lag on maneuver timing. In other words, I am an easy kill.

But, on the other hand, I do know what it is to fire at real life targets...in three different fighters. The USAF saw fit to certify me as a Fighter Weapons School instructor. The course I taught (classsroom and flying) was A2A gunnery...both fixed sight and LCOSS.

Does that make me an expert? No...but it's a long way ahead of bricklaying.

Andy

[Beurling]

Good im glad you are!!!

Im use to killing engineers ,programers, doctors, pilots etc. Guys with more intelligence than i have. I do love beating guys who mistake my poor spelling for a lack of skill or understanding of flight sims.

What i said in terms of this flight sim is right on.

I stand by it. You as sure as anyone must understand that the rounds here dont act exactly like real life.

As far as you why wont you list your name here?

Thats weak. Who's going to hunt you? You yourself said your not very good. This is play remember? Hell why would you care your a real pilot.

I flew with a guy in aw as my co. he said he was a f111 driver. He never hid.

I think its cool you are what you are.
I have respect for you. Im sure you know way more than i ever will.
 
You might be a real fighter pilot but the real question is are you as good as a play one as me.

Oh and you still should pull your conv back to 300 d.

Unless you are in a 50. cal plane or a 1c.

EYE

Btw i hope you enjoy what you do as much as i do. Im a lucky man.