Author Topic: I Condemn The "fudged-up" Icon Settings (Read 11379 times)

Shane · « **Reply #150 on:** February 28, 2005, 10:07:00 AM »

They did the no dar experiment in CT. It was a miserable failure because no one could find fights.

and CT has also (still?) used shorter ranged icons, 3k or less. this is *also* one reason why the CT has such low #'s.

DamnedRen · « **Reply #151 on:** February 28, 2005, 10:23:13 AM »

Shane,

Perhaps changes as I noted above would make it work. We are not taking the same scenario that you described. Close but not the same. Also, any AH map is the equivalent of the whole pacific ocean! If you plan to use a map that size plan on spending time looking for enemy forces.

Guess what?....in the war they looked around for a while for enemy planes.

If ya just wanna furball create a furball arena. Surprisingly , that's been done before in other sims and it got around the same number of daily follks as the CT does now. Hmmm, it's same for DA. Not many but another place for folks to hang yer hat.

IMHO the CT is used by folks that don't want to deal with the large numbers and SA required to fly and fight in the MA. They are two different animals.

Shane · « **Reply #152 on:** February 28, 2005, 10:26:48 AM »

But this is a *game* - and we have scenarios for those who want to waste a lot of time flying around looking for action.

not all the CT maps are big-azzed. this has been tried on a variety of CT maps, all with the same result.

6GunUSMC · « **Reply #153 on:** February 28, 2005, 10:46:45 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Shane
But this is a *game* - and we have scenarios for those who want to waste a lot of time flying around looking for action.

not all the CT maps are big-azzed. this has been tried on a variety of CT maps, all with the same result.

It pains me to say this... BUT - Shane is 100% right on this one.

BUG_EAF322 · « **Reply #154 on:** February 28, 2005, 10:57:57 AM »

Quote

Getting in a fight with anything else is kind of tough though, since as soon as they see your icon saying "109F" after you evade their first clumsy newb pass, they level out and leave.

i like to be lured into a quite corner by a 109F . And than eat the silly plane,

F is yummy yummy

DamnedRen · « **Reply #155 on:** February 28, 2005, 11:04:46 AM »

I agree Shane is right....from his point of view.

I, too, have flown the CT with is 3k Dar range and small maps and have had absolutley no trouble finding the enemy or a fight.

My concern and which HiTech has been addressing on this particular thread is what might be done, if anything, about visual distance. IF you could see as far as the normal individual in a cockpit of a plane could see in real life it would open up more possibilities as I mentioned above.

The current setup is used to allow you to play a certain way using the tools provided by the game.
If the setup allowed different views you may be able play this game completely differently.

Right now Shane is looking at this from his point of view as to what he has experienced so far. What IF he began the game as a new player today. AND, the game didn't have icons or dar and you had to hunt around to find the bad guys. Then when you saw one you had to ID them before you shot them?

If that's all you ever began with and all you ever knew about the game then that's how you'd play it. Right now he is calling on the experiences he's already had playing the game as its evolved. Not what it could be. So his opinions are strictly based on his experience.

There's a submarine game that's been around for a number of years that people have played. While its not my cup of java think about how long it might be before someone actually saw a ship on the ocean?

Is a different type of game play possible in AH2? I think so. Whacha think TOD is gonna be? Read the reviews in online sim mags.

6GunUSMC · « **Reply #156 on:** February 28, 2005, 11:21:53 AM »

IMO TOD is gonna be a big CT... I dont plan to play it anymore than I fly in the CT. The "realism guys" are beginning to ruin gameplay here with things like this icon system (I preferred the system from 2 years ago), the fuel burn multiplier and a few other items have made gameplay far less fun than it was then.

Lye-El · « **Reply #157 on:** February 28, 2005, 12:01:28 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by DamnedRen

What IF he began the game as a new player today. AND, the game didn't have icons or dar and you had to hunt around to find the bad guys. Then when you saw one you had to ID them before you shot them?

.

I would think that Shane the newbie would download the game, fly around for a while, find nothing to shoot at. Say "This game is pretty lame." Leave and never come back.

Knite · « **Reply #158 on:** February 28, 2005, 12:17:06 PM »

This is all a moot disagreement IMO.

If you're good enough to fly differently based on the type of aircraft chasing you, chances are, you're good enough to know what you're flying against without the icon's help.

If you're NOT good enough to fly differently based on the type of aircraft chasing you, then you aren't good enough to tell what you're flying against without icon's help.

In other words, the only people that really care that the plane they are chasing is a G-10 instead of an E, are the ones who could have been able to tell it visually anyway. The rest of us see a red icon and just start praying.

hitech · « **Reply #159 on:** February 28, 2005, 12:42:52 PM »

Quote

My concern and which HiTech has been addressing on this particular thread is what might be done, if anything, about visual distance. IF you could see as far as the normal individual in a cockpit of a plane could see in real life it would open up more possibilities as I mentioned above

Hence why we have zoom, and Icons, it is to give you the functionality you have in real life. But there is absolutly no way to duplicate real eyeballs in real space on a monitor with out adding information in a different manner than you have in real lift. Hence why we have the items like icons,ranges, and zoom to duplicate the fuctionality you have in real life.

HiTech

DamnedRen · « **Reply #160 on:** February 28, 2005, 12:54:03 PM »

HiTech

Two last questions as this is very good information...

Without rehashing size, let me first sumarize you previosly noted 30 ft = 30 with field of view, etc....

Close up size is modelled very acurately.

At what point in space (that enemy plane out there in the distance) does the aircraft size actually get out of kilter (appear smaller than a RL view of same). 400 yards? 500? 1000?

As you stated, its impossible "create" the same eyeball views we have on a monitor. That means the trade off, due to the monitor, where zoom is required is at what distance?

Perhaps Im asking the same question twice, only differently?

Ren

hubsonfire · « **Reply #161 on:** February 28, 2005, 02:07:35 PM »

Until such time as a monitor, when viewed at a comfortable distance, completely fills your entire field of view, ideally being a slightly concave display to fill in the peripheral, there's not really even a decent compromise to deal with 1 pixel dots versus plane silhouettes (okay, nothing better than what we currently have, anyway). The default zoom giving a better relative feel for size while limiting peripheral vision is the ultimate proof of this.

While I enjoy some of the realism stuff, citing pilots being able to identify other aircraft during wartime can't bear all that much relevance in here. I seriously doubt that during the war someone had to determine whether he had 2 190Es, or 2 G10s, or 1 of each, and whether the typhoon was really a tempest, and whether his wingman was in a Niki, Dora, or hurricane (mk 1, maybe a late mk 1 with 12 303s instead of 8, or a hispano hurri), and whether the second nearby friendly was in a spitV, or a XIV, etc etc. These, and many other planes, all went through changes and upgrades, and certain planes never saw ETO or PTO action, and some did very little at all, and some appeared only in the early years of the war, and some late. I'll bet just about any pilot who survived combat knew damned well what he was facing in a given theater at any particular time. Denying us that ability by hiding specific types through generic icons just seems wrong.

And, having flown now for quite a few hours with the new icon setup, I don't really think its made that big a difference in the way I fly, or even in the ways others fly. Chances are, once someone gets a positive ID on you, its far too late to do anything but fight or run like hell. Did you really have any other options prior to that?

Also, having flown in SEA events, even with 200 ppl on, you can still fly for 2 hours and not see another con. No Dar and No icons is attrociously boring. Even before radar was prevalent, there would have been ground spotters, and recce pilots, and relevant useful radio chatter to keep you informed regarding planes in a given area, how many friendlies were up and about, etc. Our simple dar system both approximates the information we'd have been furnished with, at least in part, and also greatly improves gameplay. Realism, in small doses, is fine, but gameplay is what keeps HiTech's customers around.

Anyhow, this is waaay too long winded, I'm gonna go eat some ice cream.

Cheers,
hub

DamnedRen · « **Reply #162 on:** February 28, 2005, 02:21:36 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by hubsonfire
And, having flown now for quite a few hours with the new icon setup, I don't really think its made that big a difference in the way I fly, or even in the ways others fly. Chances are, once someone gets a positive ID on you, its far too late to do anything but fight or run like hell. Did you really have any other options prior to that? Cheers,
hub

I agree with the customer base thingy you mentioned. The last thing any of us players wants to is push people away. I mean, who ya gonna kill if they all disappear from the arena!

By the same token, If you know, at a glance, what yer up against then you know exactly how yer gonna shoot them down without thinking about it.
However, if yer chasing what you thought was tiffie and it's really a tempie then you wouldn't waste time on him in a co start race.

So knowing a particular plane type is very important on how you'd go about attacking him.

humble · « **Reply #163 on:** February 28, 2005, 02:41:03 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by 6GunUSMC
Dont like this... Now everyone knows my A8 isnt really a D9

Wow....

Luckily for me I fly the Ki-61....it always heys confused with.....

the Ki-61.....

hitech · « **Reply #164 on:** February 28, 2005, 02:43:09 PM »

It never is smaller than in real life.

Near or far makes no differences, it all has to do with view angle.
But what is different is the amount of detail do to pixels on the screen that you can see on the aircraft.

To calc an object size in pixels use the following. Btw did it off top of my head, so hoping the calc is correct.

((Wingspan / DistanceAway) / tan(FOV/2) ) * (ScreenWidth / 2) = Number Of pixels.

So in my 30ft wing & 15ft dist with 90 deg FOV

(30 / 15 * (1024 / 2)) / 1 = 1024 I.E. entire screen

At aprox yards the plane is now 1 pixel across on the scree.

At 1200 yards the plane is only 4 pixels in size, now the problem is you can't see any detail with only 4 pixels on a computer screen.

HiTech