Author Topic: Students Killed in school shooting...  (Read 4898 times)

Offline beet1e

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Students Killed in school shooting...
« Reply #30 on: March 22, 2005, 10:23:08 AM »
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Originally posted by lazs2
now... where is there better gun control than at schools?  What is it?  like no guns at all within 500 yards of a school?  schools have more draconian gun laws than england.
Lazs, I think you're being obtuse! That 500 yard law does not equate to gun control. It's just a silly little byelaw; sop to concerned parents, and akin to banning nail scissors or safety razors on airliners. What guys like myself and curval understand by gun control is targeting of the supply of guns.

Shuckins - interesting post. We didn't have guns at my schools in the 60s, and neither did we go hunting! But, like you, we had two-parent families, respect, and a strong sense of societal values. None of my immediate peers was from a one parent family, and in every case that I know about, the mother stayed at home while dad was at work.

This scenario has now changed completely. We've had the ME generation, we had flower power, free love and all that crap. We've had an explosion of drugs, which has gone hand in hand with an explosion in crime. Two-parent families are now the exception, not the norm. We're now in the "rights generation". Children now know exactly what they can get away with. Whereas we respected teachers and addressed them as Sir or Miss, nowadays it's not unusual for children to physically assault staff or to tell them to fork off.
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Is it any wonder that a culture of youth-punk-gang-substance-abuse-is-cool-and-respectful-kids-should-be-picked-on mentality has spread across the country like a cancer?
We've got  exactly the same problems in Britain, but as Lazs would quickly point out, we're generally a few years behind you.

And it's because of this ^ that I believe that gun crimes in Britain would be in proportion with those of America, if guns were freely available here. They aren't.  
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Originally posted by Sandman
You can ban the guns, but the root cause(s) for this sort of societal malaise will remain and the violence will manifest in other forms.
I agree. But the societal malaise that would remain might not result in the deaths of nine people at a stroke, but for the availability of guns. If this kid, in his deranged state of mind, had only been able to lay his hands on a frying pan/rolling pin/Tate & Lyle syrup tin with string attachment, or a stake from a chain linked fence, I doubt that anyone would have died.

Offline Seagoon

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Students Killed in school shooting...
« Reply #31 on: March 22, 2005, 10:41:02 AM »
You know its funny, but as soon as I read this article I figured that exactly the kind of responses we are reading here would already be on the O club board.

A few observations:

1) "Red Lake Fire Director Roman Stately said the gunman had two handguns and a shotgun. The shooter may have obtained his weapons from his grandfather, who was a long-time police officer in the area"

The shooter in this case illegally obtained his weapons from a law enforcement officer, no gun control law other than one aimed at disarming the police (which to date I haven't heard proposed on either side of the aisle) would have made one wit of difference in preventing the shootings.  

1) "The alleged shooter believed he was the "angel of death" and a Neo-Nazi. School officials reportedly were afraid he would do something violent in April 2004, which was the month of Adolf Hitler's birthday"

Does anyone really think its odd that a nihilist with a predisposition to violent behavior would kill his classmates and then himself?

Lest we forget, Klebold and Harris's main plan of attack was a series of giant propane bombs which were supposed to take out the entire cafeteria of Columbine highschool. As one official put it at the time, it was only by the grace of God that they didn't go off because the final death toll would have been much higher than 14. Do we seriously think the solution to that problem is to ban access to propane?

As was the case with this fellow we had two nihilists who dressed in black and who had nothing but teen angst, total self-absorbtion, and an absolute moral vaccuum to direct them. With that kind of philosophy on board, its only providence that prevents these massacres from happening all the time.  

As has been pointed out, 100 years ago guns were considered a tool in most American households, not very different from a hammer, and children were raised around them and taught to use them. And yet we didn't have school massacres back then. What has changed? Well, what's different is that today our kids are by and large spiritually moribund and morally adrift if not simply amoral. I encounter kids on a fairly regular basis who have no concept of an objective right or wrong and simply weigh decisions on the basis of "Do I want to do it? Will the perceived upside be greater than what I perceive to be the downside?" And since the average teen has a limited capacity to assess long range consequences, even that grotesque means of decision making is inherently flawed (witness the sterling decisions made by teens both in the drivers seat or the back seat of cars).

What needs to be emphasized is that by and large this wasn't the case 100 years ago, "ethics and morals" had not become dirty words that send ACLU lawyers in to a legal feeding frenzy.

So it seems to me that we only have 3 possible courses of action to choose from as a society:

1) Accept that these massacres are going to occur as amoral mini-barbarians do what is right in their own eyes and get used to them.

2) Accept that what President John Quincy Adam's stated is true "We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion" and concluding that we will no longer tolerate morality and religion in the public square, accelerate the inexorable move towards a 1984-like socialist police state where all individual liberties are subsumed by the government.

3) Realize that we are tearing apart the very fabric of a free and civil society by removing every vestige of religion or morality from the public square and begin the painful process of reforming our way of thinking about the importance of the disemination of ethical instruction both corporately and individually.

Sadly, I believe that because we cannot endure choice #1 and detest the very idea of #3, then #2 will eventually become the defacto choice.

"Men, in a word, must necessarily be controlled either by a power within them or by a power without them, either by the Word of God or by the strong arm of man, either by the Bible or by the bayonet."[/i] - Robert Winthrop, Speaker of the house of Representatives.

- SEAGOON
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline Curval

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Students Killed in school shooting...
« Reply #32 on: March 22, 2005, 10:41:54 AM »
Tate and Lyle tin....that's the one that is green in colour and has a picture of a dead lion on it being swarmed by flies right?

Good stuff.

Best on panckaes and excellent for Treacle Tart.

It now comes in plastic squeezie bottles.  Damn you for getting the metal tins banned beet.  ;)
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain that is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain

Offline Curval

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Students Killed in school shooting...
« Reply #33 on: March 22, 2005, 10:49:05 AM »
"Lest we forget, Klebold and Harris's main plan of attack was a series of giant propane bombs which were supposed to take out the entire cafeteria of Columbine highschool. As one official put it at the time, it was only by the grace of God that they didn't go off because the final death toll would have been much higher than 14. Do we seriously think the solution to that problem is to ban access to propane?"

Why would you ban propane?  The bombs DIDN'T go off.  The guns sure did though.  This argument is just dumb.

You can't ban guns in the US now anyway...they are just too prevalent.
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Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #34 on: March 22, 2005, 10:49:25 AM »
There have been 4 attempts at massacres  in schools in the UK that I know of.

One was by an ex-pupil of a school in NE England. He stabbed 1 girl dead before a teacher overpowered him.

One was by a deranged man armed with a machete, who jumped over the fence of a kindergarten and attacked 4 children and 3 adults. None suffered life threatening injuries, although several had head wounds.

One was by an ex pupil at a school in Northern Ireland, who built a flamethrower out of a fire extinguisher he filled with petrol. 3 boys were burned, all survived.

One was by Thomas Hamilton, who walked in to a school armed with handguns and shot dead 16 children and a teacher, and wounded 2 teachers and 12 children.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #35 on: March 22, 2005, 10:52:21 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Curval
Why would you ban propane?  The bombs DIDN'T go off.  The guns sure did though.  This argument is just dumb.

You can't ban guns in the US now anyway...they are just too prevalent.


So when the next round of total losers does a better job and the propane bombs go off it will be a smart argument?

You're right about the ban but for the wrong reason. Check the Bill of Rights for the correct answer.

Like it or not, Seagoon actually has the correct summation.

IMO, of course.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2005, 02:43:49 PM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Seagoon

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« Reply #36 on: March 22, 2005, 10:54:13 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Curval
Tate and Lyle tin....that's the one that is green in colour and has a picture of a dead lion on it being swarmed by flies right?


You know, that's another problem with the loss of Biblical instruction in society, no one knows what's on the Tate & Lyle tin.

The dead lion is swarmed by bees, not flies. It's from Samson's riddle to the Philistines in Judges 14. If I remember rightly the Tate and Lyle motto was from Judges 14:14 "Out of the strong came forth sweetness", but its been ages since I last saw it.

Mmmmm.... Jam-Treacle-Butties.

- SEAGOON
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline Curval

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« Reply #37 on: March 22, 2005, 10:57:07 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
So when the next round of total losers does a better job and the propane bombs go off it will be a smart argument?

You're right about the ban but for the wrong reason. Check the Bill of Rights for the correct answer.

Like it or not, Seagoon actually has the correct summation.

IMO, of course.


Whatever Toad...I regret posting in this thread to begin with.  I will just bite my lip and try harder to resist the next time some nut blows your people away.  My lip will be very sore very soon I suspect.
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain that is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain

Offline RedTop

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« Reply #38 on: March 22, 2005, 10:57:29 AM »
Why did I post this?:confused:

(Makes a note...never post anything to do with guns again)
Original Member and Former C.O. 71 sqd. RAF Eagles

Offline Curval

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« Reply #39 on: March 22, 2005, 11:00:42 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Seagoon
You know, that's another problem with the loss of Biblical instruction in society, no one knows what's on the Tate & Lyle tin.

The dead lion is swarmed by bees, not flies. It's from Samson's riddle to the Philistines in Judges 14. If I remember rightly the Tate and Lyle motto was from Judges 14:14 "Out of the strong came forth sweetness", but its been ages since I last saw it.

Mmmmm.... Jam-Treacle-Butties.

- SEAGOON


lol...

Seagoon..I apologise for my post referring to yours.  I'll just say that my aching back has affected my mood very badly.

Thanks for the info on the bees though.

:aok
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain that is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain

Offline Skydancer

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« Reply #40 on: March 22, 2005, 11:08:19 AM »
Nashwan.

I wonder what would've happened if those guys all had guns when they went on the rampage? look at what happened in the incedent that did involve guns for the answer. Whatever the NRA lobby in here say, I'm thankfull that we don't have the same gun culture here.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #41 on: March 22, 2005, 11:09:43 AM »
Yes, I'm sure it will Curval.

Just as I'm sure you bit your lip when the Japanese man killed his mother with a baseball bat.

Just as you bit your lip when the San Diego man killed his mother and stepfather with a ball bat.

Just as you bit your lip when a drunk driver killed Joanne Yvonne Oullette Young and Drake Brian Young, 22 years and 4 years repectively in Calgary, Alberta.

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The driver was only .04, the breathalyzer was taken 2 hours after the crash. The driver was playing the game of leapfrog with some friends.

Joanne and Drake were on their way to spend the day at the Calgary Zoo when they were hit head-on by Greg Gallager. Drake was killed instantly, Joanne died a few hours later. Greg was charged with criminal negligence causing death x 2.

He is currently serving 2 years less a day, house arrest, 240 hours of community service, loss of licence for 5 years. There was no jail time, as they didn't want to interrupt his education.
[/b]

Actually, with all the unnecessary sorrow in the world, I'm sort of suprised you even have a lower lip.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Replicant

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« Reply #42 on: March 22, 2005, 11:13:12 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by RedTop
Why did I post this?:confused:

(Makes a note...never post anything to do with guns again)


You're learning!
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Offline vorticon

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« Reply #43 on: March 22, 2005, 11:28:09 AM »
"Seems to me 2 of these in 6 years indicates something of a problem. Glad I live in Canada."


ahem, taber,

situation at hand...

the kid killed his grandparents earlier as well...crazy **** had more issues than big billy stealing his lunch money...


gun control would not do one tiddly bit to stop it, especially when there are cheaper, easier ways to stop em.

Offline Curval

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« Reply #44 on: March 22, 2005, 11:31:14 AM »
Nope..I will reserve my lip biting to gun massacres in the US.

But you are right...soon I probably won't have a lower lip based on the recent spate.
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain that is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain