Author Topic: the armed teacher  (Read 1081 times)

Offline beet1e

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Prevention is better than Cure
« Reply #30 on: March 26, 2005, 07:55:30 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Lazerus
I don't usually get involved in these gun threads, but I just want to get some of this off my chest.

I can understand where everyone that advocates the elimination of guns in society is coming from. It sounds great to me too.

The problem is that they are here. They aren't going to go away. No matter how illegal you make them, they will be obtained and used by those that don't care how illegal they are.

But that is secondary.

Primarily, the threat of a populous with the ability to defend itself against tyranny is the only thing that prevents a government from taking their citizens God given rights away to promote it's agenda.

I know, the military in my country could theoretically stomp any citizen based armed resistance it might encounter.

Maybe.

My country was founded in a fight to remove itself from tyranny.
By armed citizens.

Crime is crime. It will always be. Guns or no guns.

My ability to make the people that assume more and more power every day question their ability to usurp my God given rights, simply by owning a firearm, is worth every life that is lost in the senseless killings everyday.

The freedom that was initiated by the USA is a freedom that has liberated millions of people in the last two hundred years, simply by being there. That freedom has no cost/value sheet. There is no price too high to ensure, maintain, or foster the right of every person to determine their own destiny.

This, of course, includes the right of a citizenry to give up their right of self protection in lieu of governmental protection...ie:banning guns. However, I believe that a constitutional amendment eliminating the rights set forth in our 2nd amendment of the Bill of Rights would be necessary to allow this in my country. The framers of that document were smart enough to require extreme measures to remove any of those rights that they deemed inheritant.

I started off stating that I understand the position of those that favor the general public being deprived of guns. I'll finish by saying that I can't understand why those that feel that way that live outside of my country feel compelled to try to impose their views on me. If I wanted what they want of my country and have in theirs, I would move. They do not live here and don't have to worry at all about all of our guns.

Until we decide we need more room for condos, or more oil or something:D



it's late, i'm just a little(?)drunk. i'm not going to read over what i wrote. sorry for the typos and whatever else in advance.
Rather a long post, if I may say so myself. ;)

And rather a longwinded discussion about 2nd amendment, Bill of Rights, avoidance of tyranny, chronology of the settling of America in response to what is actually quite a small or simple  problem. I have never said America should disarm. But it seems logical to keep guns out of the hands of nutjobs. Weise was a nutjob, and his grandparents surely knew it. He should not have had that gun. It was his grandfather's police issue weapon. The cop should have secured it. He didn't, and around 10 lives were lost as a result of his negligence. The sad thing is that this is just one example of an incident which happens in America day after day. And until some changes are made, it will keep on happening. I wonder how many mass shootings there will be in April. :rolleyes::(

Offline Shuckins

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the armed teacher
« Reply #31 on: March 26, 2005, 09:51:14 AM »
I'm a teacher Curv...but being a conservative, religious, gun-toting whacko...I'm not sure everyone wants to hear my opinion.

Oh well...you're going to get it anyway.  

Let  me make two points about this topic.

First, in Israeli schools both the teachers and the guards are armed.  Neither the students or their parents bat an eye about this...hardly surprising since the entire country, out of necessity, is an armed camp.  Yet, despite the availability of weapons, all the scarey, what-if, bug-a-boo scenarios that opponents of armed teachers and guards in American schools are constantly obsessing over never occur.  

To be perfectly fair, the students were never the problem in Israel.  Yet, that is beside the point of this debate.  The government of Israel and the parents of the students TRUST the teachers to do what is right.  Can you IMAGINE!?  Armed citizens that are TRUSTED by their government?!  How UNCOUTH!

 Big-city Americans, raised on a steady diet of "trust-us-we'll-protect-you-because-you're-incapable-of-protecting-yourselves-and-making-the-right-decisions-in-a-crisis-situation" government and mass media propaganda, can't imagine anything similar working in the United States.  These same Americans would state, with great conviction, that only highly-trained personnel, such as the police, are fit to respond with armed force in a crisis situation.  

The fly-in-the-buttermilk for that argument is that the police are, themselves, nothing more than armed civilians.  If they can successfully complete training that prepares them to respons to danger, why can't teachers?  If some highly-trained teachers were allowed to do double duty as armed guards, there would be little need to go to the added expense of hiring armed guards.  

You can cry and whine about the "necessity" of disarming the populous until the cows come home, but it isn't going to happen anytime soon.  Reality is here and now.  What are we going to do in the meantime.  No more hysterics, please.  If you have another solution, I'm willing to hear it.

Secondly, American schools are far too large for the staff and administration to get a handle on this situation.  One of the most common statements to be debated in these situations is usually "Why didn't the staff and administration see this coming?  How could they miss the warning signs?"

As if it's possible to do so in an environment where the average student gets lost in the shuffle.  When the bell rings ending a class period the average American school fills with the equivalent population of a small town.  When you shunt your children into such an environment you largely cede your ability to detect dangerous situations.  Crime, drugs, and violence abound because it is impossible, with such a large population of students, to get a handle on them.

The schools have to be broken up.  No ifs-ands-or-buts about it.  No school should have more than 3 to 4 hundred students in it.  In schools of that size, students develop greater rapport with each other and their teachers, criminal activity is easier to detect and thwart, and the learning environment improves.

I don't see to these two suggestions exist, given the current situation.

Offline lazs2

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the armed teacher
« Reply #32 on: March 26, 2005, 09:51:23 AM »
hmm... this is exactly what I have been saying for years.

It is a good idea and less full of hypocracy.   It is hypocritical to have a state policy that allows concealled carry by allmost everyone except teachers.  

I had allso suggested that the sky marshal program be reinstated and that pilots be ALLOWED to carry if they wished... these things have been done and they seem to be working.

If teachers were simply ALLOWED to play by the same rules as everyone else then they would probly act like everyone esle.. In this case... concealled carry permit holders.

We need to examine concealled carry people... By far they are the most law abiding group in America.  At most... not even 10% of the people allowed will carry concealled.   There has never been a wr4ongful death suit that has been succesful against the more than 10 million concealed carry holders.  What are we afraid of..

or... do we think that treachers are not as good as regular folk?

armed guards (as pointed out) can be overcome or avoided... they are obviously armed... concealled carry is....well... concealed... ther may be ten teachers with guns and training and there may be none.   if you don't know then it takes the fun right out of your little goth planning.   Even if the shooting starts... you can be sure that someone will be shooting back and you won't know who it is till the bullets smack into your little nose picking zit temple.

We are not arming teachers... we would be allowing them the same rights as everyone else.   It isn't a problem anywhere else and it has been proven to prevent crime so why continue with the hypocritcal and dangerous policy of "no guns in school except by psycos"  

This is another example of liberals happy to see kids die for the look of some policy.

lazs

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #33 on: March 26, 2005, 09:51:49 AM »
I'm a teacher Curv...but being a conservative, religious, gun-toting whacko...I'm not sure everyone wants to hear my opinion.

Oh well...you're going to get it anyway.  

Let  me make two points about this topic.

First, in Israeli schools both the teachers and the guards are armed.  Neither the students or their parents bat an eye about this...hardly surprising since the entire country, out of necessity, is an armed camp.  Yet, despite the availability of weapons, all the scarey, what-if, bug-a-boo scenarios that opponents of armed teachers and guards in American schools are constantly obsessing over never occur.  

To be perfectly fair, the students were never the problem in Israel.  Yet, that is beside the point of this debate.  The government of Israel and the parents of the students TRUST the teachers to do what is right.  Can you IMAGINE!?  Armed citizens that are TRUSTED by their government?!  How UNCOUTH!

 Big-city Americans, raised on a steady diet of "trust-us-we'll-protect-you-because-you're-incapable-of-protecting-yourselves-and-making-the-right-decisions-in-a-crisis-situation" government and mass media propaganda, can't imagine anything similar working in the United States.  These same Americans would state, with great conviction, that only highly-trained personnel, such as the police, are fit to respond with armed force in a crisis situation.  

The fly-in-the-buttermilk for that argument is that the police are, themselves, nothing more than armed civilians.  If they can successfully complete training that prepares them to respons to danger, why can't teachers?  If some highly-trained teachers were allowed to do double duty as armed guards, there would be little need to go to the added expense of hiring armed guards.  

You can cry and whine about the "necessity" of disarming the populous until the cows come home, but it isn't going to happen anytime soon.  Reality is here and now.  What are we going to do in the meantime.  No more hysterics, please.  If you have another solution, I'm willing to hear it.

Secondly, American schools are far too large for the staff and administration to get a handle on this situation.  One of the most common statements to be debated in these situations is usually "Why didn't the staff and administration see this coming?  How could they miss the warning signs?"

As if it's possible to do so in an environment where the average student gets lost in the shuffle.  When the bell rings ending a class period the average American school fills with the equivalent population of a small town.  When you shunt your children into such an environment you largely cede your ability to detect dangerous situations.  Crime, drugs, and violence abound because it is impossible, with such a large population of students, to get a handle on them.

The schools have to be broken up.  No ifs-ands-or-buts about it.  No school should have more than 3 to 4 hundred students in it.  In schools of that size, students develop greater rapport with each other and their teachers, criminal activity is easier to detect and thwart, and the learning environment improves.

I don't see to these two suggestions exist, given the current situation.

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #34 on: March 26, 2005, 09:57:07 AM »
Oops...sorry about the double post guys.  I never got confirmation that the first had been successfully posted...so I sent it again.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #35 on: March 26, 2005, 10:01:33 AM »
it boils down to.... we allow average citizens the right to carry concealed but teachers are somehow....Inferior?

We trust em to cover students with their bodies as the bullets fly or attack armed psycos with their bare hands (as they have done in the past) but..

we don't trust em with a firearm?

let me see if I got this straight... democrats/liberals are saying that teachers (one of their biggest support groups) are inferior in judgement to everyone else..

That could be possible... I will make a comprimise.

Any teacher who shows such poor judgement to have voted for a democrat should not be allowed to own or carry concealed any firearm.

lazs

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #36 on: March 26, 2005, 10:04:22 AM »
soooo... we trust em to teach our children how to weld or use a cutting torch or a table saw or even a lathe... we trust em to teach our kids safe sports but.... we don't think them as capable of firearms safety as the millions of other concealled carry permit holders 100 yards away?

lazs

Offline Staga

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« Reply #37 on: March 26, 2005, 10:22:14 AM »
I think your government should give every 10y old kid a .22 and when they are 14 they should have a .45 Autos. When 16... M-16 :)

That way they could protect themself from threats the system they live in produces and parents wouldn't have to be afraid about their childrens safety :)

Where's NRA wen it's needed???

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #38 on: March 26, 2005, 10:32:05 AM »
staga... why would you give 10 year olds weapons that are too large for em?  I think a Kimber .22 bolt action rifle in childs length would be a better and safer training aid.

You would also of course have to tell them that shooting other people was wrong.  I know that would be too stifling for you but I really think it should be taught and any infrigment on that rule would have to be punished severly.   the exception would be that shooting bad guys would be ok.

Just owning and enjoying the gun would be fine too.

lazs

Offline Sixpence

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« Reply #39 on: March 26, 2005, 10:49:41 AM »
Alot of store owners are armed, but they still get shot because they are caught by surprise.

It would be a sad day in America when we start arming teachers
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #40 on: March 26, 2005, 10:53:25 AM »
silly example.. A lot of store owners and their customers are alive because of the guns they carry.. A lot of bad guys are dead and unable to prey on society because of armed storeowners.

America is not talking about "arming teachers" we are talking about allowing them the same rights as everyone else.

Again... are teachers inferior in some way in your opinion to everyone else?

lazs

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #41 on: March 26, 2005, 10:57:00 AM »
As I said Sixpence...reality has to be addressed.  The disarmament of American citizens isn't going to happen any time soon.

Action has to be taken NOW to protect our school children.  What do YOU suggest?  Arming teachers is unacceptable to you.  

The only other option is to hire teams of armed guards to protect each school.  Armed and trained citizens I might add.  Citizens just like the teachers.

If you're not willing to arm teachers, then you've gotta fork over some more tax money to hire, arm, and train more of your fellow CITIZENS to do the job.  Citizens who possess no more native intelligence and courage for this task than the teachers who are already on the job.

You don't trust ME to protect your children...alrightee then, dig DEEP into your billfold friend...cause you're gonna have to hire other people JUST LIKE ME to do the job instead.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2005, 10:59:01 AM by Shuckins »

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #42 on: March 26, 2005, 11:00:48 AM »
shukins... he trusts you with his kids education and with power tools and to sheild his little darlings body with your own when the shooting starts (the shooting his policy caused) but he doesn't trust you with a gun because yu are a teacher and somehow..

inferior to everyone else.

lazs

Offline Sixpence

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« Reply #43 on: March 26, 2005, 11:04:55 AM »
There are armed guards at the post office, never prevented a shooting.
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #44 on: March 26, 2005, 11:06:30 AM »
Armed guards at the Post Office?!  Not where I come from I can assure you.