Author Topic: Flaps, flaps, & flaps.  (Read 11599 times)

Offline agent 009

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Flaps, flaps, & flaps.
« on: April 23, 2005, 11:45:12 PM »
D-9 had 5 preset flap positions, Oscar had butterfly flaps, & George had automatic flaps. Mustang pilots would "drop" flaps to increase turn.

Can someone elaborate on all these flap bits?

Offline GScholz

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Flaps, flaps, & flaps.
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2005, 12:03:52 AM »
Dora had 5?
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Offline lasersailor184

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Flaps, flaps, & flaps.
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2005, 01:48:03 AM »
Well, I can explain the basics of flap work.  Dropping flaps increases the lift BUT increases the drag.  So it's a risk you have to weigh.


Yes, the P51D will turn better with a notch of flaps, but it will lose speed.
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Offline bunch

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Flaps, flaps, & flaps.
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2005, 02:41:14 AM »
I was taught that since lift is proportional to wing area, but also proportional to  (airspeed minus stall speed) squared, flaps only increase lift near the stall, where they also decrease stall speed by increasing camber

Offline Crumpp

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Flaps, flaps, & flaps.
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2005, 07:26:30 AM »
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Dora had 5?


Dora had 3, Take-off, Landing, and retracted AFAIK.

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline dtango

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Flaps, flaps, & flaps.
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2005, 09:28:39 AM »
agent 009:

Flaps are aerodynamic devices that increase the maximum lift you can obtain from your wings by changing the shape of the wing (camber), increasing the wing area, or both.  

Essentially the different types of flaps try to employ these different approaches to increasing lift including the combination of slots (yet another aerodynamic device) with flaps as well.

You'll also hear about slats which are essentially slots on the leading edge of the wing to achieve the same purpose of increasing lift obtainable.

All these devices come in both manual (pilot) or automatic forms of deployment - automatic usually based upon air pressure activating the device.





Hope that's a little help!

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Offline GScholz

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Flaps, flaps, & flaps.
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2005, 11:54:49 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
Dora had 3, Take-off, Landing, and retracted AFAIK.

All the best,

Crumpp


That's what I thought too.
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Offline Kweassa

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Flaps, flaps, & flaps.
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2005, 12:07:31 PM »
IIRC,

 Flaps momentarily increase lift, before its increased drag ultimately drags down the speed so it causes more harm to lift.

 They are also a secondary flight control which use is almost mandatory in take-off/landing procedures in RL. They are stabilization devices that lowers the stall speed of the plane. If a plane stalls at 90mph with flaps up, it might hold on until 70~80mph if flaps are out.

 So, while it is not advised for combat use in RL, and rarely did normal pilots ever use flaps in combat, in harsh maneuvering conditions it could prove to be very useful.


 For instance, if a P-51 is chasing a Bf109 at high speeds, the 109 pilot would be hard pressed to enter a tight turn due to physical limitations such as dangers of tunnel vision, fatigue, and heavy elevator controls. The chasing P-51 could drop a notch of flaps and it would;

1) act as a speed-brake which slows down the aircraft, so its speed comes closer to the corner velocity, helping it turn better and avoid overshoots

2) provide more lift, due to the flap effects, and thus help the turn

3) stabilize the plane, due to its nature as a stabilization device, which also helps in a turn


 
 Often, a plane that maneuvers 'worse' in a certain point of view, might outmaneuver a 'better' plane solely due to flap effects. Take the example of 109 vs P-47s.. if there's a good P-47 in the cockpit, the 109 will have a very hard time trying to follow prolonged, tight turns, since the stabilization effect of the P-47 flaps have a very benevolent effect on the plane, as compared to 109s in AH which cannot start using its own flaps until under 190mph or so.

 Or, the example of Ki-84s which can stay with a Spit5 once its flaps start popping out.

Offline Crumpp

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Flaps, flaps, & flaps.
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2005, 12:12:24 PM »
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as compared to 109s in AH which cannot start using its own flaps until under 190mph or so.


However, in reality, the 109 could drop 10 degrees of flap at well over 400 mph.

Both 109 and 190 pilots used flaps to gain angles in a hard dogfight.

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline niklas

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Flaps, flaps, & flaps.
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2005, 12:23:55 PM »
oh yes crump..
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=138237

some releases happened meanwhile, nothing changed...

niklas

Offline agent 009

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Flaps, flaps, & flaps.
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2005, 01:24:58 PM »
All good stuff. Sorry, can't fing where I read the 5 flap positions for Dora. Now how bout the Georges automatic flaps, & butterfly flaps of Oscar.

& different flap positions on D-9 meant one could preselect flap settings, but Mustang one could only drop flaps, correct?

Offline dtango

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Flaps, flaps, & flaps.
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2005, 05:13:33 PM »
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Kweassa Wrote:
Flaps momentarily increase lift, before its increased drag ultimately drags down the speed so it causes more harm to lift.

Just for clarification the extra lift capability provided by flaps isn't momentary.  Drag is increased but it doesn't do any "harm" to lift at low g's.  That's why an aircraft's stall speed can be lowered and still maintain flight (especially during landing).

At higher g's and during sustained turning extra parasitic & induced drag and resulting power-required added by flaps becomes a factor in increasing energy bleed rate and thus "drags down the speed" but it's not because it harms lift per se.

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Offline Ack-Ack

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Flaps, flaps, & flaps.
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2005, 06:23:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa


 So, while it is not advised for combat use in RL, and rarely did normal pilots ever use flaps in combat, in harsh maneuvering conditions it could prove to be very useful.





P-38 pilots used flaps regularly in combat.


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Offline agent 009

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Flaps, flaps, & flaps.
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2005, 08:35:56 PM »
Mustang pilots report using flaps to turn with 109's over Norway.

Hey ack ack, I met cofee today. he flew P-38 L. Had 51 missions over pacific. & was original founding member of P-38 society, or perhaps club is correct word. he lives 2 doors down from my sisters house. His full name is William Coffman as I recall.

He told me a little story bout Japanese flying US 4 engined planes.

Offline GScholz

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Flaps, flaps, & flaps.
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2005, 08:43:52 PM »
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
P-38 pilots used flaps regularly in combat.


ack-ack



Not like they had much of a choice. Without them they'd lawndart more often than not.
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