steal killing

[-ammo-]

"steal killing"

I heard this statement along with some heated and belittling words last night in the MA. It was aimed at a squadie of mine--he is of good character as long as Ive known him. The person with the remarks wouldn't stop with the chiding and the "explanation" of why this is not tolerated. Hmmmmm. He definately wasnt trying to steal a kill from this guy---the con was still flying--so he shot at him. Pretty historical if you ask me.

Dont get me wrong here. I dont want to infringe on anyones "game" here. I fly to have fun and I love to excell at it too. What is the big deal with seeing your name in the kill buffer? You know you got a piece of the guy--right? Ok so it does bother you--are you really that anal to take the person to task with it? I doubt he really wants to ruin your game. ( thats not the reason I give my $30 to HTC)

My squad is new here. We were 37 strong in WB's and it looks like we are bringing 25+ to AH. I am excited about it for one and I speak for several people.

Yes I guess I am ranting a little. My squadie logged off after this and he was a little upset. Sorry guys--just wanted to get it off my chest.

ammo
332nd Flying Mongrels

[RAM]

mmm...ammo I guess you talk about me. Yes I was somewhat abrupt at first I told him literally :"thankyou for trying to kill my target...now I know for who I'll never dive to clear his 6"...He answered that he thought he was helping and as I saw he was a newbie I told him calmly that when a con is going down in flames and without a wing, then you dont have to shoot at him.
 I came here at Aces High with no previous experience online in this kind of simulators, but from the start I understood what was a steal and what no. I guess he didnt know, so I calmed down and explained it to him.

Maybe I was abrupt. From here I want to apologize. I'm not in my best times in the MA, if fact i am thinking seriously in quitting at all...and when I kill a con and I see someone diving vertical on it and firing the flaming plane...well hope you understand.
I usually shut up and comment it with my squadmates. Yesterday at first I lost my nerve, but then I tried to make it good.
Again, my apologizes. This is getting hard to me lately.


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Ram, out

JG2 "Richthofen"

 

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 03-19-2000).]

[Kieren]

I will give you a very good reason to do what he did.

Last night, I was tracking a Spitfire North of F1. He saw my 109 above him and decided that was a bad option, so he dove. He dove directly towards my countrymen, and sure enough, one picked him up. RAM attached himself to the spit post haste, and within a short time had removed a wing. I was in the follow-up position by this point, but as a wing was gone I didn't fire. I watched the Spit tumble end-over-end on the turf, and waited for the kill.

There was none.

I was trying to clear another pilot from a Spit. I was a bit high and it took me some time to work down. The countryman gets killed, I make 3 tight guns passes on the Spit, he was good, spoofed every pass enough to live. I figured no prob, he would soon be out of alt. He was. He ditched that sucker in a blink of an eye.

After liftoff, I'm just climbing off F1 when I see countrymen zooming low my 3 to 9. I roll left in time to see the 109. I decide I have a pretty good position, so I dive. Now, I got as close as 1.1, but couldn't quite close the range. I decide, since two others are right there, to climb a bit and cut off the 109's egress. It was a great plan, and would have worked, except, yup, he ditched with a 51 and a 38 right on his tail. This one I don't clearly understand, as they rode him to the ground. I was too far away at that point to get the particulars, but that one is hard to understand. I don't see how he could have extended enough in the time I watched to have set down.

On the other side of the coin, I rolled an F4U end-over-end the other night and walked away.

My point? No kill is certain until you see the puff of smoke. Anyone who is riding my wing should feel free to put a burst into anything I shoot, I won't say a word. I would much rather someone kill it than to have that wingless bird whip around and kill me later (which has happened).  

[Swager]

Here is something.

Hit a spit pretty hard as he dove over top of me.  Knocked a few pieces off. I continued to go after him but was not closing range.  The con was opening.

Bullzi came from a higher alt and caught the guy and finished him off.  Bullzi did exactly what he should of done.  That cons would of made it home if he didnt shoot him down.  Weird thing was I got credit for the kill and Bullzi only got the assist.    He deserved the kill, not me!

Sometime ya never know!!    

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Swager
"Damn.....I can't believe I missed that shot!!!"
 
JG2 "Richthofen"

[This message has been edited by Swager (edited 03-19-2000).]

[Dinger]

I dunno kier, sounds like you're making more of an argument for ditch=kill than kill stealing.  Frankly, I'd rather a ditch go unawarded than be scored a kill to someone who destroyed an already-departed A/C.

[Rock]

 

I usually shut up and comment it with my squadmates. Yesterday at first I lost my nerve, but then I tried to make it good.

Right! Ram, what DON'T you complain about?

I was going to explain my position on why I didn't give you a 6 call. But after you went on and on, squeaking and moaning, I decided you don't even deserve an explaination.

I do give 6 calls if I see the opportunity and the situation permits. Personally I consider them as "gifts" and don't expect them often. Nothing can replace SA.

In your case I'll make it a point NOT to give 6 calls.

[BaneX]

 

In your case I'll make it a point NOT to give 6 calls.

I think that's quite alright.. he has a load of squadmates who will.  

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BaneX

JG2 "Richthofen"

[LLv34_Snefens]

It's a judgement call in many cases whether you should help out or you think you friend has got it under control. If you have time you could ask if he needed help. I get positively suprised when tht happens to me.

I try to hold fire when I see my target is mortally wounded, and therefor I have had some kills "stolen". I don't take that too bad. Often my friend just couldn't see from distance that the bad guy maybe had lost his elevators or likewise.

So its not these single events where the "steal" is often a mistake that's annoying to me, but more when pilots dive down on an enemy target where there is plenty of friendlies around it allready. They will soon be the hunted because they have given up all their advantage. Boelckes Dicta warns against this:

"Attack on principle groups of four or six. When the fight breaks up into a series of single combats, take care that several do not go for one opponent."

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Ltn. Snefens
RO, Lentolaivue 34

[RAM]

Kieren:
Yup i remember it well... was a spit to wich I ripped his wing at an altitude of 200 feet or so...the plane went right down and somehow he survived...

The 190 I killed and was nearly stolen, had a ripped wing and was going down in flames from 15K, going vertical. The guy went after it firing as crazy...no way such a wounded con can survive the hit with the land...and as someone said it before I'd rather see a plane ded as a ditch nor as a stolen kill.
BTW we, Kieren and me, both were on same spit from the very start...if you'd have killed him It'd have been ok...when I saw the con ditched on the deck, and no kill awarded I turned as fast as I could to finish it, but was too late...I knew what was going on     if someone would've killed it then I would't have complained because that wasnt going to be my kill anyway...so that example is not the best    

Swager, I agree...but is not the same thing to finish a glider plane trying to ditch that try to make explode a wingless burning plane going down fast as a meteor...I never complain when someone kills a con thats gliding and I've been unable to kill it before. All I use to say is "ok, but I could've done by myself"     but never in an angry way...

Rock...I guess you are the rockster that saw a 109 going in my six and you wanted to put yourself in his 6 before warning me. I guess you imagined that If you warned me I'd maneouver and the kill would be more difficult isnt it?...and you still dont want me to get angry with yah...man I really dont want your 6 calls, take them to yourself. you wanted a con's life before mine. You put me on danger to kill an enemy. And you still have arguments?...
Its sad to see people like these on the arena...

Snefens: yes it has happened to me too...and its curious i believe was with ammo... he fired a 109 and I saw it smoking (possible radiator gone)...Ammo then had to break cuz he was too near and as I came after him i put a full burst on the 109 and killed it. I got the kill...I was trying to avoid him ditching, If someone does it with me is ok, as I said before. Then talking with the killed guy, he said he had engine ded...and ripped tail!!!   I felt like a burglar   I never saw the tail going off...so In a private I apologized...he answered in a nice way, that was teamwork and was OK. <S> ammo...but the kill was yours and I stolen it...w/o wanting it,but was stolen.

Said that you see what is my point. I get very angry when someone steals my kills, and I try to never do it. Sometimes has happened...but not with me wanting it.


[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 03-19-2000).]

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 03-19-2000).]

[Ghosth]

Actually guys this is a good thread. Let me tell you why I think so.

First off, part of the reason is no one likes to have a kill stolen. After thinking about this last night I realised that if "Kills" were represented directly by points instead we probably wouldn't have this problem.

Say a plane is worth 100 points. Plane explodes someone gets all possible points.
Pro rate them out according to hits & damage done, and your assist may actually mean something.

Say you light a guy up but he manages to ditch. Plane is 65% destroyed, plus he didn't return it to base. Award 65 points again pro rated out by hits & damage.

Now we have a sim where it doesn't hurt so much if someone ditchs. Where someone "Helping" may pick up a few points, but you picked up more!

We can even now easily penilize score for planes not returned to base. A score which will reward the pilot who can engage the enemy, do some damage & return to base.

Throw in a good landing bonus, and we work harder to set up correct landings (instead of crashing our plane any which way).

We also have a sim where chivelry can exist.
Where fair play is the theme of the day. Last where you can truly measure how good you are by your score, because it will reward good flying, & penilize poor flying.

Last, while the mongrels may be new to AH, we are not new to air combat. Any plane still in the air is a threat.Period.  

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Maj Ghosth
XO 332nd Flying Mongrels


[This message has been edited by Ghosth (edited 03-19-2000).]

[Vermillion]

While I'm sure RAM over reacted and maybe was a little harsh (but he did apologize, and I don't know a single pilot who hasn't over reacted at least once) I can honestly say I can feel his pain, without endorsing his methods.

Right now I fly the P-51. And yes while it is possible to get kills with the .50 cals, its a slow and tedious process. Usually you don't get the quick and easy, one pass or snapshot kills.

You stalk the enemy, make several passes and wear him down thru attrition, with long bursts from convergence.

I don't know how many times I have engaged an enemy, shot off his tail, seen him tumbling out of the sky (straight down) totally disabled, and then see a cannon bird sweep in , take a momentary burst, and then they get the kill.

Cannons and Machine Guns are in totally seperate magnitudes of damage, and it wasn't like this in most of the beta.

Its totally disheartening.

Especially since assists, don't count for anything at all. Just like Ghosth said, its not equitable in the least. Assists should at least count for 1/3, or even better 1/2, in the scoring formulas.

Anyways, RAM .... bad boy bad boy! But at least you were man enought to apologize  

Mongrels, welcome to AH!   From my point of view, I would suggest accepting RAM's apology and writting it off to a bad night, we all have them and I'm sure it wasn't meant as a personal insult.

{Vermillion of the 25 kills to 20 assists ratio clan, and crappy rankings because of it   }

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Desperately trying to figure out why Kamikaze Pilots wore helmets"

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by RAM:
mmm...ammo I guess you talk about me. Yes I was somewhat abrupt at first I told him literally :"thankyou for trying to kill my target...now I know for who I'll never dive to clear his 6"...He answered that he thought he was helping and as I saw he was a newbie I told him calmly that when a con is going down in flames and without a wing, then you dont have to shoot at him.

People IQ must have drop in the past couple years when they don't know that planes without wing and smoke coming out of it, doesn't fly really well  

(and graphics have even improved in last couple years, so that can't be a problem either)

[Minotaur]

 

Last, while the mongrels may be new to AH, we are not new to air combat. Any plane still in the air is a threat.Period.

IMO this sums it up and goes paralell to how I feel about this.  The issue "Stealing of Kills" really seems trivial, at least to me.

However; I can see how it might matter to some players interested in score.  For those players, keep in mind the that the MA is a "Stirred Cauldron of Confusing Manipulations".    

There is no way things ever go exactly the way you want them to go.  You are going to lose kills to other players and sometimes get free ones.  For the most part it evens out.  Lighten up, it will be more fun.

Mongrels welcome to AH.  Good Luck!    


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Mino
The Wrecking Crew

[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 03-19-2000).]

[Hobo]

On many, many occasions in WB's and now in AH, I have dove on an enemy that was chasing a country mate.  Typically I am left with 2 choices because there is not enough time to do both.  Here they are:

1) Take my hands off the controls and type a 6 call to my countrymate and then do my best to recover control and get to the con.  All the while I must hope my country mate sees the 6 call and has very good defensives to avoid death.

2) Dive on the con, hope my countrymate's SA is high and try to kill the con before the con kills him.  If my country mate makes a nice drag then it is over quickly and hopefully my country mate survives.


So which would you rather have?  Personally I'd prefer you dive in on the guy as quickly as possible.  My SA is my responsibility and hopefully I can give you a decent drag so you can kill the bastige.  


Hobo

[Rocket]

  I have felt the pain of speading a ton of time to set a con up for the kill and stip them down to a wingless fuselage and have someone follow it clear down to the ground.  I fly on and think oh well look at him blow his E.  I have cursed to myself as I am 200 out shooting and a friendly crosses and I take kill shooter hits.  I am sure at some point in time that I have accidently done the same.
  I don't play for score I play for the team.  I have been on fumes for fuel and turned to try to help a friendly. I have jumped into 2vs10 to try to help a friendly outta a bad spot.
  I don't know how many times a single wing or 1 1/2 wing plane has ditched or shot back.  If someone else as the angle before I can get around then kill em.  I have many times ditched with not much plane left, figure if he didnt' finish the job tough luck.  The other day I had a 4 kill sortie with 2 of em comin with only 1/2 wing on the right side of my 1D.
  My long winded point is a kill is a kill no matter who gets it.  I value assists just as much as kills.  Matter of fact a good assist feels better than a kill alot of times.  I will always look at helping the teammates and always welcome someone finishing off anything that has 1/2 a chance of ditching or shooting back.  Now if they don't have any wings I tend to mutter to myself here at home but without drones offline I guess these make good practice targets      

S!

Rocket


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The Red Dragons
Fierce and Bold
With Honour and Courage
_______________________

 www.reddragons.de

[This message has been edited by Rocket (edited 03-19-2000).]