Hey P47 pilots am I crazy or...???

[TexMurphy]

Ok Ive started my next plane project, the jugs.

I really enjoyed the F6F and will definatly still fly it but one of my goals is to learn the ToD planes so Im moving over to the jug.

Ive been in it before but strictly for JABO work.

Few nights ago I did my first DA session in the jug and now Ive been flying it for two nights in the MA.

My first impression is OMFG this plane is awsome and way underated.

First thing that struck me was "wtf do people only BnZ in this thing?". The reason Ive been so so about learning this plane is because I HATE BNZING!!!

So I wanted to see what can this plane really do. So far Ive been really successfull E fighting in it. Note so far is just two nights so it doesnt count for much and hence I wana hear it from you Jug vets.

Instead of just Zooming out after my approach I do E fight my enemy. Ive been using only dual axis manouvers, obelique turns, barell rolls, basicly anything I can pull which aint flat turn or loop. Been using the flaps really hard and the rudder.

As long as I got E left in my jug it really feels like it can dance with almost anything.

What supprices me is for how long I can stay in the E fight. My first idea was to get quick gun solution in the E fight and then extend out of the fight. This is still my objective as you really have to bug out before you are anywhere near running out of E, but the time is much much longer then I thought. EVEN WITH FLAPS DEPLOYED!!!

What I wonder is if Im a dweeb on crack or if the Jug really can E fight this well.

IF it can wtf dont people do it and just BnZ in it???????

Tex

[Morpheus]

Nah, your not crazy it can do it very well.

But remember shes' the heaviest fighter we had of the war. So once you run out of even a small bit of alt, 1-2k, to turn into some speed to remain manuverable, it could be time to start looking for an exit and maybe regain some alt. It all depends ofcourse on how you feel you sit within a given fight.

I love the jug, shes a very awsome bird. And rugged as heck. But after flying the 51 for a long time, I can really feel the weight difference between the two. Which is why I always end up going to a 51 if not a 38.

[YUCCA]

Jugs are uber!

[bustr]

Psssst.......if you ask YUCCA really nice sometime, he might tell you where the afterburner button and antigravity buttons are in the Jugs cockpit............ I think he won't tell me because he needs to keep at least one Jug secret to use on me..............heheheheheheh eh:D

[pellik]

First off, which jug are you flying? I consider the d11 to be in a different class alltogeather then it's two younger brothers. Morph's comment on weight doesn't seem to hold true as much to the d11, if you know how to handle it. The d11 can get it's nose up about as quick as a 38 when at low speeds if you know how to manage your E in a knife fight. It's stability is only matched by the 38 and p40, the 51 may feel lighter but it can't pull Gs at all like the d11. This allows it to use slow fighting tactics to take control of the angles. It also seems to have the nicest stall of the three Jugs. I've found success in this plane by knife fighting it like a 38, just expect the nose up performance to be weak and the nose down performance to be unmatched. Once those flaps come out the nose down turns will win you many fights.

The extremely basic approach to flying the d11 to it's strengths would be to start with a double immel, popping full flaps on the top of the second, and doing a low yo-yo or split-s to match the turns of the lower con. Once you get a good feel for these turns you can get more aggressive and fight below your opponent, looking for a chance to use your superior (smaller) turn radius to pull up into him.

-p.

[Morpheus]

Yup Pellik, the D11 is lighter.

But 90% of the pilots who take up a Jug are going to take either the d25 or D40.

Atleast from what i've seen...

Im sure there will be some scientifik anal-ysis. of that statemnt tho.

I for one like the D11.

[TequilaChaser]

Most people practice in planes in the DA and TA with a lite fuel load as well,  I have always suggested learning to fight/fly any plane one might pick with a heavier fuel load say 50% minimum and most times 75% or 100%, knowing the differences in how the plane responds with a heavier fuel load will help you in the long run.

and to me is a whole different fight, is like 25% ( checkers game ) vs 75 or 100% ( chess game ).....

if you can be successful with a hvy fuel loaded plane it will make it that much easier when you are lite on fuel......

just a thought.......

[bustr]

Rats Tequila there you go and make sense.

With a full fuel load you have to look at the timing of your over all flight and fight in longer terms. Being heavier does not mean you cannot fite as easily as with a light fuel load out Jug.

You cannot afford to give up E in a full fuel load Jug, and most likely "Energy" fighting will be the norm untill you can kill the con or disengage and get separation. Full fuel load means planning your flight path so you have altitiude over your engagement area, and enough fuel reserve for your egress. Also keeping an eye on who's at what alt in the engagement area as you enter it or exit it.

[TexMurphy]

@pellik

Im in the D40 atm but I will try the D11, though the views out of that one are sooo horrible.

When you do the double immels do you you strech em as high as you can or pull em as tight as possible?

Personally I dont really see the use of trying to pull em tight because I doubt you can pull em tight enough to get inside the enemy and it will burn to much of my E.

Pulling streaching em high can be an alternative if I got a E advantage but then it will be hard to pull double ones and I dont like streching immels as your so exposed to a inside shot if you misjudge the E situation.

What I have been doing is that Ive been angling my immelman. This way I still get the high reverse effect on flat turning dweebs while managing to stay vertically with immeling pilots. Unless the enemy can read the angle immellman (which Im sure most reading here can) then I do get a good angle on my opponent.

Tex

[bozon]

though the D11 handles slightly better, the D40 makes up for that (and more) with the added horse power (especially the wep).

Tequila's remark on fuel load is spot on. The Jug carrier 370 gallons. that's over 3 times the fuel load of the 109. So the difference between 75% and 25% is day and night. When dealing with such loads, every 1% counts.

When down to 25% the jug's big engine really starts to feel powerfull. With 75% you feel heavy and climb poorly. Also, the wingloading of an empty Jug is not that bad (better than a FW190). The trouble is that 25% lasts very little time in full power. So the cost of range in the jug is being a fat pig for most of the time, then a few quality minutes as a wild boar before you have to RTB.

Part of the reason people think the D11 is more nimble than the D40 is that it carries less fuel. So 50% in both is NOT the same fuel load. The D11 has a little better 'coolness' factor to it.

Bozon

[TexMurphy]

Yeah the comment on the fuel is spot on.

I have two situations in DA.

1. Practice ACMs. This I do quite alot and then Im just drilling my ACMs in a plane I know really well, I drill my ACMs to push em past the limmits. Here I always use low fuel load and same plane as my sparring partner.

2. Practice Plane. This is what Im doing atm with the P47 and then I load it and fly it as if in combat (be it MA, CT or SEA). I practice with the fuel load that Im "most likely" to fight with. For the P47 that is 25-50% fuel load.

I usually take off with 50% and a DT. I know this could be a taaad to much BUT I dont fight near my takeoff base atm. The jug is horrible for that and I avoid it. So I need fuel to get back after the fight and so far its been ok to take 50%+DT.

Basicly I try to get to the point where I dont "fight any differently" with more or less fuel. I say it in "" because ofcourse I do but I want to get to a stage where I feel the plane and ride on the planes edge, not force manouvers upon the plane.

If I feel that the plane can do it then I do it. Ofcourse before I learn the plane I will miss judge it alot. But once I get there it does work for me.

The more different planes Ive learned the easier I have to find this "feeling" for the plane. The F6F gave me a good sence of mass shifts due to fuel loads.

Tex

[Balsy]

Actually Ive seen a few jug studs fly low around their base and sucker a lot of unsuspecting pilots into a "quick kill" and find themselves quickly overshooting the jug and being killed.

Usually its the D11.

bastiges

[Shane]

yeah jugs rock... they can surprise you.  i prefer the d11 and once you get used to the arsed cockpit views... i also prefer the d40 over the d25... never did find a comfort zone with the d25...

[dtango]

There's a reason for the "Jugfire" moniker that some people give it .

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[Don]

The D-11 is less powerful and lighter than the D-25 and 40 but, that is compared to each other. It is one of the most powerful a/c in the game. I don't fly the D-11 much because of the cockpit views, and spend more time in the 25,. The 40 is the best at Jabo and has dive brakes; the 11 and 25 do not.
The 11 is more manueverable than the other 2 models but, none of them are the TnB type but, can be flown that way if one knows how. You won't regret having learned how to fight this a/c