Hunter Killers Frame 2 Results

[daddog]

Gents the following took place on May 6th in Frame 2 for the Friday night Squad Operations with about 203 pilots attending. 106 Axis pilots and 97 Allied pilots.

Allied pilots shot down and destroyed:
4 – Me262’s  – 80 points
14 – Fw190D – 140 points
23 – Me109G10 – 230 points
2 – Ta152 – 20 points
15 – Fw190F8 – 150 points
Ammo factory 81% down – 162 points
Fuel factory 69% down – 138 points
Radar factory – 99% down – 198 points
Defending points - 18
Total Allied Points 1136 points

Axis pilots shot down and defended:
13 – Spit IVX – 130 points
14 – Tempests – 140 points
10 – P51 – 100 points
5 – P38 – 75 points
9– P47 - 90 points
0 – A20 – 0 points
Ammo factory 91% down – 182 points
Defending points 102
Total Axis Points 819 points

Allies lost 51 aircraft, the Axis lost 58 aircraft. This surprises me since it is the Allies who are having to dive in exposing themselves to enemy fighters above. I would have expected the Allies to have more losses. It is the fact that the Allies were able to destroy the majority of their ground targets that handed them Frame 2 since the difference in losses is only 7 aircraft.  Also they did this successfully without using the A20’s which are point gainers for the Axis.

Did not note any squads over their numbers, but a few were low. My squad was low by one by one pilot (me). Others squads were low by quite a few more.  C.O.'s get your guys to show up please.

Ace Fighter Pilots
BritCH – 5 kills

Top Bomber/Jabo Pilots
Phantasm – 21 objects
Dace – 21 objects
ZigZag – 19 objects
Jagua5 – 18 objects
Phaze – 18 objects
Drift31 – 15 objects
buster – 14 objects
Nomde – 13 objects
MAG1C – 12 objects
Ledg – 12 objects

As always any errors on my part please let me know.

Frame 3 orders will go out this weekend Hope you all had a good time.

[doobs]

I demand a recount, with officals from both sides, there were
alot of hanging chads on the allied side.  Thats it I cant fly a squad if there is going to be hanging chads.

[JB42]

As far as scoring goes, the Allies had a distinct advantage. They had two more targets to hit. Even if the Axis shot down most of the planes attacking the factories, it would never be enough points to offset the damage those planes scored. Add to that, the allied aircraft, except the P38, could easily out dive any of the Axis airplanes, and The Tempest, Spit14 and P51D could out run any Axis aircraft, except the 262. Then finally, 37 Tempests? Come on. Thats nearly double any other single aircraft the Allies put up. This event is clearly sided to the Allies. I think before it runs again, some serious changes need to be made.

[TracerX]

Originally posted by JB42
...Then finally, 37 Tempests? Come on. Thats nearly double any other single aircraft the Allies put up. This event is clearly sided to the Allies. I think before it runs again, some serious changes need to be made.

Suggestion, allow only 20 perk planes for each side except for the 262's leave at 10.  I don't know if there is a good solution here.  I know Daddog wants to open up the Perked planes for this scenario, but I think Spit14 & Tempest combo, beats everything on the Axis side, including 262.  Unlimited Ta152's just doesn't quite balance the scale.

Still, there are lots of setup changes Daddog can do to help balance the engagement, so we can just wait and see what is in store for Frame 3.

[kevykev56]

I have to disagree, I think this setup is fine. Yes the allied does have an andvantage. But isnt this suppose to be a late war setup. This would be more representative of the late war when the allies did have the advantage.

I also have to say that frame two wasnt just an aircraft superiority that made the score. The allied plan was probably the best I have seen since playing in the FSO for the last year. Nomde did a great job!

Another point I would like to make is, I think the axis would have been very fun to fly. Yes you were at a disadvantage in speed overall but from what I could see at all engagements you started with alt advantage. I would love to be in a D9 above 37 Temps.

I really think the axis did a great job, you guys killed alot of planes considering the setup.

To all, This was one of the most fun FSOs I have been a part of.

[Dace]

Originally posted by JB42
This event is clearly sided to the Allies.

This is how it was, the Luftwaffe was in shambles by this stage of the war. What went on friday night was REALLY what happened.
IMO... the fun part for you would be trying to change history with the same resources that the boys back in '44 had.

[JB42]

The Allies had one taget to defend while the Axis had to defend three. Thats setup brother, not history. If the Axis had 2 more targets and a possible another 400 points, perhaps it would have been closer. Add to that, Allies would have needed to commit more forces to defending said 2 other targets.

As for history, if FSO is going to be about recreating history, why bother, we know who won. I was under the impression that FSO was about taking time periods and seeing what could be done. Even in this FSO, the number of Axis was close to the number of Allies. This would not have been the case had we really been doing it historically. Also, you think there would have been more Tempests in flight than Ponies or Jugs (historically speaking)? Umm, NO! So take the history argument and, well, make it history.

[Dace]

Originally posted by JB42
The Allies had one taget to defend while the Axis had to defend three. Thats setup brother, not history.

Also, you think there would have been more Tempests in flight than Ponies or Jugs (historically speaking)? Umm, NO! So take the history argument and, well, make it history.

The Luftwaffe was all out of initiative by now, so 3 attacks to 1 seems right to me. And as far as the # of tempests, I believe if u read the scenario description, it says 5 squadrons of elite tempests were brought to the area ...no?  Besides a tempest is no match for a pony or a jug anywho.

BTW 42 im not trying to be malicious, just sayin what i feel.
~S~

[JB42]

i understand you point Dace, my point is this: If we are going to do FSO by the way History was played out, why bother. Early years the Allies get their butts kicked. Later years Axis takes the beating. I think FSOs should be setup to see what would happen if things were not as they were. Hell, if I want to see how "Hunter Killers" plays out historically, I'll watch the history channel.

no disrespect here, just a good debate.

[GooseAW]

Heck, I had a ball!

Course the C HAWKS did kick some tail in those Temps...

Seems to me these FSO are all trial and error. Was fun for all I hope. Next scenario will be different, and we'll either bit#H or cheer for that one.

Nomde put a solid plan together for Allied and I chose to think that is what won it for us!:aok  Relax....this won't hurt a bit

[daddog]

Good points by all. Thanks for keeping things civil.
JB42 is right. Squad Operations are not about recreating history, I leave that up to the Scenario team. Squad Operations is about getting a taste of what it could have been like at that time. We try to do this by supplying historical terrains, aircraft, targets, and other environmental settings.

I realize the Allies are favored to get points when it comes to the targets. I honestly thought they would not have faired so well. I expected more losses from the Allied AC side and less for the Axis. It was at least true for frame 1. I thought the 262’s would be great at breaking up some incoming formations helping the Axis side. I also expected the Allies to have a tougher time reaching their targets.

I definitely did not want to give the Axis more ground targets because by this time in the war they were mostly defending. Also attacking forces the Allies below the defending Axis planes, again giving the Axis an advantage. Lastly the Axis really don’t have any large ordinance carrying planes.

Personally before I would run this again I would make some changes. At least going by frames 1 & 2.

1.   I might give the Axis more Me-262’s.
2.   I would require the A20’s be used every frame.
3.   I would require an even distribution of Allied aircraft and the use of them. They have 6 aircraft to choose from. I would require they use at least 5 and each one of the 5 to be approximately 20% of the aircraft flown.
4.   Possibly making the ground targets worth less. Maybe 150 points each instead of 200.

Points wise the Allies are at an advantage, but if you look at the aircraft losses, no telling how it will go for frame 3. Frame 1 Axis lost about 50 and Allies lost about 70. Difference of 20. In frame 2 the difference was only 7 aircraft in the favor of the Allies. In frame 1 the actual air combat as far as losses is about what I expected.  Frame 2 was a total surprise. I will let it play out in frame 3 and then consider the changes above for the next time we run it.

[doobs]

Daddog for Pope, or Us Supreme Court Justice,  which ever opens first.

Great post.

[doobs]

Originally posted by GooseAW
  Relax....this won't hurt a bit [/B]

oh How I beg to differ, kind Sir.

but I think the only blast you will have this Friday, will be your own.

[1Klink]

the only problem i had was the fact that where i was ordered too defend,they didn,t attack until after i had took my plane up too 20-K then had too re-fuel after 3 time of re-fueling they attacked the target and i was out of fuel again.

[GooseAW]

Originally posted by doobs
oh How I beg to differ, kind Sir.

but I think the only blast you will have this Friday, will be your own.

MuHAHAHA! Bring it on big fella!