Author Topic: Contra rotating propellors  (Read 8919 times)

Offline Guppy35

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Contra rotating propellors
« Reply #45 on: May 10, 2005, 03:48:20 PM »
91 Squadron is an interesting one.  Started on Spit IIs, then Va, Vb and Vcs, also a few VIs on to the Spit XII, then the Spit XIV.  Gave up XIVs for IXs, then went to the 21.  

Not sure what other squadron flew that many different marks of Spit and clearly no one flew more Griffon Spit types operationally then 91

41, my other favorite since they flew the XII had Is, IIs, Vs, XIIs and XIVs flown operationally.  So they're close with 5 types, but not sure anyone else flew 7 different Spit variants during the war.

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Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #46 on: May 10, 2005, 04:04:21 PM »
Dan,

what is your take on the Osprey 91 Sqd book?



Cover is one of a Mk XII of 91 Sqd which scrambled to intercept some Fw190A-5s on May 25 1943.

edit: changed date
« Last Edit: May 11, 2005, 10:20:30 AM by MiloMorai »

Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #47 on: May 10, 2005, 04:19:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by MiloMorai
Dan,

what is your take on the Osprey 91 Sqd book?



Cover is one of a Mk XII of 91 Sqd which scrambled to intercept some Fw190A-5s on May 29 1943.


That's the book I was referring to.  I think it's a good reference.  He and I crossed a few of the same paths in terms of pilots talked to etc.  He had a few Spit XII bits I hadn't found.  Ray Nash's photos show up a lot, and when I was digging in 1980, he wasn't ready to let them out.  Those I got were from H.D. Johnson, who also contributes to the book.  I got to a few guys who have since passed on, prior to his getting there too.

The cover Spit XII is EN625 DL-K which was Ray Nash's bird.  Not sure why the artist gave it a 5 blade prop :)

My only nitpicky things are around a profile of a Spit XIV and a photo of a pranged Spit XII DL-V.  That one has been misidentified in two books now. Alfred Price's Spitfire at War, and in this one.  The Spit is MB839 not MB832 and it was Jacko Andrieux's mount DL-V.  The image was taken after it was out of service and 91 had gone on to XIVs.

I was lucky enough to be loaned the original photos so I could get copy negatives made.

I wish I had known the book had been in the works as I'd have happily passed on the photos and info I had that he didn't have.

Still the 91 book is a good one to have on the shelf.  Another guy is working on a 41 squadron history, and he and I have been in contact so my photos etc will hopefully help him with that work.  10 + years of hunting, so it's a fairly decent pile of photos and info :)

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Offline mw

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« Reply #48 on: May 11, 2005, 10:06:26 AM »
Well, I checked No. 91's Diary and there are photos of IXs and XIIs, but alas, no XXIs.

Here's some No. 91 Spit XII photos from the Diary:
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/no91spit12-a.jpg

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/no91spit12-b.jpg

Here's some clippings about the 190 raid that was intercepted.  Milo, please forgive the nitpick, but that interception occurred on the 25th, not 29th.  There was apparently no operational activity on the 29th.

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/no91news.jpg

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #49 on: May 11, 2005, 10:19:20 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by mw
Milo, please forgive the nitpick, but that interception occurred on the 25th, not 29th.  There was apparently no operational activity on the 29th.
 


NP, typo error. :)

Offline mw

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« Reply #50 on: May 11, 2005, 10:44:18 AM »
Getting more to the point of the thread here's an Aircraft Data Sheet for a Spit XIV with contra prop:
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit14contra-ads.jpg

465 mph isn't too shabby ;)

p.s. Dan, I found a No. 91 Spit 21 pic in Spitfire the History, page 476 my version - definately wartime photo.

Offline Kurfürst

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Contra rotating propellors
« Reply #51 on: May 11, 2005, 10:45:54 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35
Spit 21 from 41 Squadron with contra-rotating prop.  4 cannon and superior to the Spit XIV


Hmm, the 21 was a very trouble infested aircraft with serious stability issues. They developed it from 43 onwards, but could not cope with the problems. It was very slightly faster than the MkXIV, a few mphs only, as the guys at supermarine managed to find out by the wars end that wheel well covers actually reduce drag. Other than that, at 9200 lbs it was 700lbs heavier than the XIV, had the same engine, with about 200 fps less climb rate and more malicious handling with the new wings... the only pros over the 'old' XIV was the 4 cannons (another thing that took supermarine half a decade to solve..), and perhaps a little better roll rate due to the stiffer wings, but as from I read from the later Marks, this was still quite poor at high speeds due to the enourmous stickforces. Same fuel load, same poor range.

I would rate the XIV over the 'better' 21 at any time. More manouverable, lighter, better climber, less bugs.
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Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #52 on: May 11, 2005, 11:51:29 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by mw
Well, I checked No. 91's Diary and there are photos of IXs and XIIs, but alas, no XXIs.

Here's some No. 91 Spit XII photos from the Diary:
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/no91spit12-a.jpg

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/no91spit12-b.jpg

Here's some clippings about the 190 raid that was intercepted.  Milo, please forgive the nitpick, but that interception occurred on the 25th, not 29th.  There was apparently no operational activity on the 29th.

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/no91news.jpg


Thanks for those.  I hadn't seen the captions.  I have a copy of the first photo.  Made me laugh to see the caption as S/L H.D. Johnson(a 91 pilot) and I went back and forth through the mail on the IDs and I was convinced the one guy was absolutely Jimmy Anstie, and he was sure it wasn't.  Turns out I was right :)

The other two photos appear in that 91 Squadron book.

Image is my favorte photo of the Spit XII boys.  Taken shortly after their best day when they got 9 for no loss on October 20, 1943.  Ray Harries is center with 41 on his right and 91 on his left.

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« Last Edit: May 11, 2005, 12:06:06 PM by Guppy35 »
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Offline Krusty

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« Reply #53 on: May 11, 2005, 01:19:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35
Image is of a 91 Squadron Spitfire 21 from a photo given to me by one of those 91 pilots who flew it on ops :)


Erm... that's not a contra prop. That's a single 5 bladed prop.

Offline mw

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« Reply #54 on: May 11, 2005, 01:27:25 PM »
Yes Dan, that's a nice photo :)  Thanks for sharing!  Here's some stuff from No. 91 pertaining to 20.10.43 that may be of interest:

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/no91diary-pg115.jpg
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/no91diary-pg116.jpg

Offline mw

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« Reply #55 on: May 11, 2005, 01:59:25 PM »
Here a Spit XIV with contra prop:


Spit 21 with contra prop:


:)

Offline Kurfürst

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« Reply #56 on: May 11, 2005, 02:38:54 PM »
One would always think Supermarine could not possible make that plane more ugly than the last version... and then they prove you wrong, again and again. :p
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Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #57 on: May 11, 2005, 04:42:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by mw
Yes Dan, that's a nice photo :)  Thanks for sharing!  Here's some stuff from No. 91 pertaining to 20.10.43 that may be of interest:

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/no91diary-pg115.jpg
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/no91diary-pg116.jpg


Thanks for those :)

Where'd you come across that stuff? I've never seen it.

It did mention Chris Doll and Ray McPhie, both of whom I was lucky enough to correspond with for a time.  I have copies of both their logbooks for their Spit XII driving time.

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Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #58 on: May 11, 2005, 04:44:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
Erm... that's not a contra prop. That's a single 5 bladed prop.


Yep.  Never said they flew contra-rotating Spit 21s on ops :)

Probably should have clarified it though as I can see in retrospect where it might have been seen as implied based on the original discussion.

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Offline agent 009

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Contra rotating propellors
« Reply #59 on: May 11, 2005, 10:10:54 PM »
Chatted with my P-38 neighbor Mr Coffee today. he said he worked on the XP-56. Said it had no feather control, but did have a switch to set off a charge to blow off the props from the back in case a pilot had to bail out. He also said it flew real good.



Aircraft: Northrop XP-56  
... I think XP-56 could be used, having ... for a parasite fighter under a B-36, years ... of XP-85 Goblin (a jet fighter). In the other hand, XP-56 shape ...aeroweb.brooklyn.cuny.edu/specs/northrop/xp-56.htm - 10k - Cached - More from this site