People who love their children...

[miko2d]

 Have you ever been to Israel? A nice quiet country. Despite the war going there for the last 50+ years it is much less violent then, say, New York City, even with the drastic crime rate drop of the last decade.
 You have a much smaller chance to fall victim to violence there then in most other places we live in.
 Despite all the nice statistics, people there take safety of their children seriously. You will see groups of children everywhere - on field trips, tours, etc., accompanied by two adults with assault rifles (M16 or Galils). Do those teachers/guardians have to use the weapons often? Probably never. Why are they doing it? Because if there is something threatening to their chilrden, they do not want to rely on their efficient police, incredible army or judicial system. All those work no worse then in US or any european country but they may not be present at the moment of need.

 miko

[mrfish]

i'm sure rats love their children too

[fd ski]

apples and oranges

[Animal]

uhhh..
yeah, so lets send children to field trips with teachers armed with assault rifles!!


"RATS AND CHILDREN FOLLOW ME OUT OF TOWN."

[Maverick]

 

Originally posted by fd ski:
apples and oranges

Apples and oranges are good for children.  

Mav

[Sorrow[S=A]]

A child in Israel knows much more about what danger lies in the world, and what hate and death really mean than a confused 15YO kid in San Diego does after bullies steal his skateboards. They also understand much earlier what the consequences are when guns become involved. Oddly enough about 3/4 of the Israeli kids I met there were distinct pacifists. When violence is so ever present in your life you tend to want less of it, and certainly dwell less on lashing out at your peers with it.

[Dowding]

Are you serious? What the shreck are you on Miko2d? What romantic view of the world you have! Is that the your vision of utopia?

If I had to live in a society in which teachers carried M16s, I'd be soon blowing my head off with said automatic weapon.

[-lynx-]

Hehe - that's why they don't have many of your like Dowding - they all blew their heads off . Before you do though - I 'd like to point out to you that just across the water from where you are just a couple of years ago British Army patrolled the streets with assault rifles at the ready.

Another point (just trying to take you down from your high horse gently. I am fearing you might break your bleeding neck or something - you are so high up there ) - those kids don't have much choice. You don't get many choices as a kid, do you? I mean, if you don't like teachers escorting you - it's just tough cuz that's how they do things over there . You (over here) are, of course, free to express your opinion on their peculiar habits .

[Dowding]

Think before you write lynx (I can be patronizing too).  

1) It's one thing having armed troops on the street, it's quite another to have teachers armed to the teeth just to get through the day.

2) I was commenting on Miko's apparent desire to emulate the situation is Israel, i.e. choosing that approach rather than having it forced on him (as happened to the Israelis).

It helps to actually read what people write.  

[-lynx-]

Oh c'mon, let's patronise, it's fun  .
 

1) It's one thing having armed troops on the street, it's quite another to have teachers armed to the teeth just to get through the day.

Lesse here... Err... Ummm... Can't read yourself, can you?  :"...You will see groups of children everywhere - on field trips, tours, etc., accompanied by two adults with assault rifles..." That's not "just to get through the day - that's on the street, where terrorists do strike occasionally. Same as troops on Belfast's streets...
 

2) I was commenting on Miko's apparent desire to emulate the situation is Israel, i.e. choosing that approach rather than having it forced on him (as happened to the Israelis).

For the life of me I don't know what miko was trying to say, especially since he's in NYC as far as I remember, although I doubt that it was desire to emulate the situation in Israel  .



[This message has been edited by -lynx- (edited 03-07-2001).]

[Dowding]

I'll bite.  

Miko says "Teachers/guardians" not troops. As far as I know, guns are inherent part of a soldiers job. Teachers are generally armed with a piece of chalk and a stern glare.

Your situational analogy is inaccurate. So there.  

[miko2d]

   

Originally posted by Dowding:
Are you serious? What the shreck are you on Miko2d? What romantic view of the world you have! Is that the your vision of utopia?
 ... I'd be soon blowing my head off with said automatic weapon.

For your information, Israel is a real country - with advanced democracy, mostly free market and high level of socialism. People living there are better educated then people in your country, their average IQ is measurably higher and they love their children no less.
 Many of well educated and well-travelled people I know would prefer rasing children in Israel then in US or England - despite the fact that there is a war going on there.
 Since I expected that quite a few people may not be closely familiar with Israel, in my post I carefully referred to my personal experience and easy, safe way to assertain the truth of my statements.

 I would think that just bringing up a relevant and arguably working example in a civil discussion should not elicit such a violent, offencive and sensless reply. You managed to pack quite a few offencive implications plus foul language (which you took care to disguise to pass decency flters) in a very brief statement.
 You are a prime example of deranged people reacting completely unpredictably and going off at the slightest provocation. I shudder to think what you would do if my child accidentally stepped on your feet in a bus.
 I would also be afraid that your offencive manners would push some other unstable individual into a violent rampage and my child would happen to be nearby. What kind of children you can bring up, I can only speculate.

 

If I had to live in a society in which teachers carried M16s, I'd be soon blowing my head off with said automatic weapon.

Not only teachers. From my observation one tenth to one third of the people in the street, depending on location, carries longarms and god knows how many carry concealed sidearms. Also almost every home has an assault rifle, usually not in a safe, because their reservists keep weapons at home. So what?
 The important thing is they do not use weapons for criminal purposes as often as americans or brits do.

 As for teachers specifically. I am not worried that armed people guard my money in the bank, embassies in the capital, order on the street, our presious soil from canadian or mexican invasion, our european allies from serbians, saudis from other arabs, etc. - even though I could care less about most of those.

 So when I let the most precious thing I have - my children - out of my sight, I would feel much better if a teacher or supervisor could do something about their safety if a need arose, unlikely as it may be.

 I am sorry if a sight of a rifle offends your aesthetic feelings, Dowding.

 I can try to bring my children up as well-balanced persons so that they do not resort to unnecessary violence. I can even teach them not to be cruel other people so that those are not tempted to shoot them.

 Still, I have no control over other parents producing dangerous and mentally unstable offspring.
 All the suggestion I heard so far were preaching to the choire.

 I have a practical suggestions for you. Freeze a few dozen embryos. Insure your children for the cost it takes to bring them up to their current age plus cost of IVF and surrogate mother (if needed). Get used to the idea that your children are expendable and replaceable - name them all the same, for example. Then you can just replace the ones you lose to a chance violence and go on with you life.
 How about that for utopia?

 There are a few more history-tested techniques. Just get an authoritarian dictator, like Hitler. He/she will be able to get rid of crime, violence and armed people on the streets. Also sterilize the mentally-unstable people (you should think twice about that one, though). Your children will be safer in their schools and playgrounds.

   

mrfish:
i'm sure rats love their children too

Good one! You are not the first one to compare jews with rats but you did it masterfully here. I've seen some brilliant Nazi propaganda films and posters where that theme was exploited to the amazing effect but as far as single-liners go, yours belong right with them! I am sure quite a few readers of this thread will take away that particular subconcious association.
 But I thought that your kind was only afraid of those jews that lived in other countries, tried to achieve economical and cultural domination, despoil your women and reduce the pure blood of your master races. I can assure you that jews living in Israel are far from such ambitions. For all practical purposes you can call them Israelis. Also, they will be quite busy with arabs for the next few generations.

 miko

[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 03-07-2001).]

[Dowding]

As if I was serious Miko.

[Dowding]

As if I was serious Miko. But who wants to live in a society where brandishing automatic weapons is the only way you can feel secure? I'm sure most Israelis don't want it that way - they'd rather live in peace and get on with their lives. Circumstance and history prevents them doing just that.

 

The important thing is they do not use weapons for criminal purposes as often as americans or brits do.

Perhaps this might have something to do with the circumstances they are in? We have no immediate threat - there is no unifying force in our societies and no channel for anti-social behaviour to escape through.

Like someone said earlier, apples and oranges.

Earlier in your rambling:

 

You managed to pack quite a few offencive implications plus foul language (which you took care to disguise to pass decency flters) in a very brief statement.

Then you wrote:

 

You are a prime example of deranged people reacting completely unpredictably and going off at the slightest provocation. I shudder to think what you would do if my child accidentally stepped on your feet in a bus.
I would also be afraid that your offencive manners would push some other unstable individual into a violent rampage and my child would happen to be nearby. What kind of children you can bring up, I can only speculate.

Firstly you criticize me for being offensive, and then launch into some tirade about how much of a banana I am. I'm violent, deranged and sociopathic? An interesting example of "How wrong you can be".

FYI, 'shreck' is not considered offensive over here - it passes independant TV censors with no problem unlike the word 'diddly'. Easily confused, as be it may.

Secondly, the response "what are you on?" is not considered particularly offensive. I didn't mean it in any under-hand way, I apologise for any offence caused. It's generally taken to denote a indication of disbelief, in case you were in any doubt.

If I had any respect for you before, it has evaporated into the ether. Good-bye.

[miko2d]

 

Originally posted by Dowding:
As if I was serious Miko.

I suspected that much - after all I saw you other posts which are quite rational if not always agreable with my views. So I am guilty of exaggeration in using your reply as a example/punchbag. No hard feelings, I hope?  
 miko