Author Topic: Even the Department of Justice agrees  (Read 1414 times)

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2005, 08:24:16 AM »
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Originally posted by Momus--

Virgil, the two biggest sponsors of terrorism and islamic extremism in the world are Saudi Arabia and Pakistan and both are key US allies and have been for decades. Why don't you ponder the significance of that fact before spouting the usual half baked war-rationalisations.
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:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:



One serious flaw in that reasoning. Neither of those governments is or was at the time OPENLY hostile to the U.S., nor were they openly and publicly funding terrorism in the way Saddam Hussein was. Further, both of those goverments have, at their own risk, joined in the war against terrorism. maybe not as aggressive as we'd like, but still, far more than Hussien ever would have.

Why don't YOU ponder THOSE facts before you go spewing the same crap and toeing the lefty line?

Have a nice day.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2005, 08:38:55 AM »
Terror... thank you for the link.

I have been trying for a while to find it.  This is an extremely important work and will indeed have bearing on what the supreme court does in the future.  This will be a highly quoted document.

MT... tell your wife that no federal law stating that the second was not an individual right has ever been made so therefore.... non has ever been repealed.

fishu... is the first amendment "outdated" and in need of modernization also?   how bout some others?   Read the frigging DOJ paper and then we will talk about it.

I think Bush putting in some constitutional minded supremes and this document and... the sucess of the concealled carry laws all speak toward us keeping our human rights to defend ourselves... and that don't mean women and old people strying to stopp a couple of thugs by using some cricket paddle thingie and a lisp.

lazs

Offline Airhead

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« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2005, 08:53:00 AM »
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
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One serious flaw in that reasoning. Neither of those governments is or was at the time OPENLY hostile to the U.S., nor were they openly and publicly funding terrorism in the way Saddam Hussein was. Further, both of those goverments have, at their own risk, joined in the war against terrorism. maybe not as aggressive as we'd like, but still, far more than Hussien ever would have.

 


Actually there's been no link between Al Queda and Sadaam Hussein....just sayin.

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #33 on: May 10, 2005, 09:44:51 AM »
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Originally posted by lazs2

MT... tell your wife that no federal law stating that the second was not an individual right has ever been made so therefore.... non has ever been repealed.

lazs


Oh yea? Well she also said your brain was in your prothesis... but I told her she was wrong. She argued a little till she looked down the barrel of my glock. :p

Offline Momus--

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« Reply #34 on: May 10, 2005, 09:57:08 AM »
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
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One serious flaw in that reasoning. Neither of those governments is or was at the time OPENLY hostile to the U.S.


Oh, so it's ok to export extreme militancy to the corners of the globe, send billions to a plethora of millitant groups, arm those groups, provide logistical support and safe havens, so long as the host government is not openly hostile to the USA? So it's ok as long as the general public doesn't know, is that what you are saying? Ignorance is bliss? It doesn't matter until Dubya and the luminaries on your chosen media outlet tell you it is an issue, is that right?

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nor were they openly and publicly funding terrorism in the way Saddam Hussein was.


I hate to break it to you, but their support for terrorism far outweighs anything Saddam ever did in that line of business.

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Further, both of those goverments have, at their own risk, joined in the war against terrorism. maybe not as aggressive as we'd like, but still, far more than Hussein ever would have.


Over the last 3 decades the Iraqi ba'athists have done as much if not a lot more to combat the threat of Islamic militancy than the US and allies.

It's plain that you don't know a thing about the structure and workings of either the Saudi or Pakistani regimes. Just because President Musharraf and Crown Prince Abdullah pay lip service to George Bush, you think that makes any difference to the reality of the situation? You think they are actually in full control of their respective regimes. Saudi Schools continue to teach that the USA is the centre of infidel power in the world and is the enemy of Islam. Saudi businesses and private citizens continue to funnel hundreds of millions of dllars to extremist groups. The Pakistani ISI continues to be inextricibly linked with organisations such as Harkat-ul-Jihad-al-Islami, Lashkar-e-Jhangvi and Al-Qaeda themselves. By your logic this is insignificant since their respective host nations are not "OPENLY" hostile to the US, correct?

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Why don't YOU ponder THOSE facts before you go spewing the same crap and toeing the lefty line?



The problem, as far as you are concerned, is that I am familiar with the facts of the matter whilst you plainly are not. Even if I was a left winger, which I am not by my own domestic standards, I would still be right on this. That you resort to accusations of leftism as a rationalisation just demonstrates your own intellectual bankruptcy.

Offline parker00

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« Reply #35 on: May 10, 2005, 12:23:13 PM »
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Virgil, the two biggest sponsors of terrorism and islamic extremism in the world are Saudi Arabia and Pakistan and both are key US allies and have been for decades. Why don't you ponder the significance of that fact before spouting the usual half baked war-rationalisations.


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The problem, as far as you are concerned, is that I am familiar with the facts of the matter whilst you plainly are not. Even if I was a left winger, which I am not by my own domestic standards, I would still be right on this. That you resort to accusations of leftism as a rationalisation just demonstrates your own intellectual bankruptcy.



Since you are so full of facts then please explain how Pakistan has been an allie to the US for decades. We had sanctions against them until shortly after 9/11 and they were only removed because they cooperated with us.

Offline Wotan

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« Reply #36 on: May 10, 2005, 12:40:48 PM »
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The Iraq war was started with the popular suport, by people who had been lied up their faces that Iraq poses some kind of threat to them.
Media worked as an excellent relay to spread this bullcrap to the people, since they report everything that Bush says and everything which says there could be a threat to the USA.
The Bush government didn't even need to ask the press to cooperate, they did it for their business. The media knows what people wants to read and the Bush government knew whats a good bait for the media.

So they got people to believe that Saddam was harboring terrorists, having warehouses full of WMD with the target being the US interests / the USA itself and somewhere on the line some people even thinks Saddam had a part with the 911.

Then Bush simply started his "little" war in Iraq, with the popular support.
It's all about how you utilize the media, you don't need to tell them what to write.
No conspiracy there, we all should know by now that the major reasons for the war in Iraq were a lie (well, I guess the american history goes to claim it was just an extremely bad case of misintelligence.. ops).


Is it too simple to realise?


None of that is accurate. its just the ramblings of a left wing Euro-tard.

You kept stating your opinion as fact yet you don't provide evidence. You do realize that there is no 'universal media'. You do realize that the government doesn't control the 'media' and has little power to 'trick' them into printing anything.

You do realize their were a lot of questions in the media about the validity of the Bush decision to invade Iraq.

You do realize that the majority of the worlds intelligence services believed that Iraq had WMD not just Bush.

you do know that Iraq paid the families of suicide bombers in Israel. Is it real that big of a stretch to imagine that Saddam wouldn't finance or aid an attack against America? After all he sponsored an assassination attempt against Bush 1.

He used used WMD against his own people. He had mountains of chemical agents unaccounted for etc...

The fact that no WMDs were doesn't prove you right and does nothing to address the legitimate concerns at were held at the time.

So spare us you 'Bush and his tools in the media' conspiracy nonsense. None of this has anything to do with my freedom or the Second Amendment anyway.

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What comes to the stantard of living, I was clearly talking of the living stantards during a civil war.
It would badly affect the economy for a long long time.


People who would be so inclined to revolt would not be overly concerned about the the 'economy'.

'We can't revolt today because our economy will suffer...'

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Nowadays it is even more about that who controls the army.
If the army stays loyal to the government, it doesn't matter how much firearms the civilians had prior to the rebellion.


Nonsense there are far more folks with guns then there are military personnel and equipment.

You are just making it up as you go...

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Wotan, history is replete with examples of democratic governments going to war on behalf of special interests and using the media to get public opinion on-side, and the US is no exception, in fact it provides some of the textbook examples. No "left-wing nonsense" there, just historical fact. And as Fishu correctly states, the media's relationship with government is generally so incestuous and dependant on political patronage that the main outlets can almost always be relied on to report the governments line.


That's left wing nonsense at it finest. See my reply to Fishu. If can prove me wrong post a source that shows the media being duped or at the very least a tool of GWB.

I didn't vote for Bush either time (or his father). i don't care the guy at all. But that completely different from the paranoid delusions espoused by you and your Finnish Comrade.

Offline GtoRA2

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« Reply #37 on: May 10, 2005, 12:56:50 PM »
Raider(shade)179
"3)It makes me laugh, I almost wish the government would try to take all the guns just so we could see who would actually put their life at risk to protect their guns. My guess more than half the gun nuts on this board would hide em in a toolshed at their "unlces" house rather than face off with the U.S. government/military."


Yeah it does not suprise me one bit you would like to see Americans killing americans. Scumbag.

Offline Raider179

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« Reply #38 on: May 10, 2005, 01:01:10 PM »
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Raider(shade)179
"3)It makes me laugh, I almost wish the government would try to take all the guns just so we could see who would actually put their life at risk to protect their guns. My guess more than half the gun nuts on this board would hide em in a toolshed at their "unlces" house rather than face off with the U.S. government/military."


Yeah it does not suprise me one bit you would like to see Americans killing americans. Scumbag.


yeah but you forgot the qualifier "almost"....lol but i deserved that so...

Offline GtoRA2

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« Reply #39 on: May 10, 2005, 01:14:18 PM »
That was a cheap shot I will admit, but I do not wish death on people I do not agree with. Not even almost.

Offline Yeager

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« Reply #40 on: May 10, 2005, 01:27:05 PM »
"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of THE PEOPLE to KEEP AND BEAR ARMS shall not be infringed."

I for one certainly do not expect modern day europeans and liberal americans, to grasp the concept of individual freedom, but I know their intent is well meant.
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Offline Fishu

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« Reply #41 on: May 10, 2005, 02:07:40 PM »
Hey..  I'd like to have guns myself too, but I don't buy the excuse that the right to carry arms would somehow make people able to remain free from the states oppression / make the state behave rationally.

Offline lasersailor184

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« Reply #42 on: May 10, 2005, 02:18:11 PM »
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So its worth it to start a war over exagerated amounts of guns and also ruin the living stantards?


Hmm, how to put this...


Umm...


YES!
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Offline Elfie

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« Reply #43 on: May 10, 2005, 02:33:21 PM »
Incredible how some people take any opportunity, no matter how slight to not only bash Bush but to continually spew the same diatribe over the Iraq war.

Not one of us here on this board could have done anything to stop the American army from invading Iraq.......get over it already.
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Offline Tumor

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« Reply #44 on: May 10, 2005, 02:34:59 PM »
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Originally posted by Raider179
1) They are not all volunteers. You must have missed the parts where they extended people's tours and brought back retirees to fight.
 


Yes, in fact they are volunteers.  This is all part of the contract when you volunteer.
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