Even the Department of Justice agrees

[Raider179]

Originally posted by lazs2

Raider... I doubt that many people would stand alone against large government forces for any freedom... That is like saying that we should take away freedom of speech to see how many would resist arrest.

If the government simply banned all private ownership of guns they would be clumsily (and messily) puting out uprisings all over the place... their heavy and clumsy hand would enrage even more people and riots would ensue.   those "guns hidden at an uncles house" would come out.  

I am curious tho as to why you trust the government so much that you feel that they should be the only group armed in America.  You seem very afraid of organized religion and it would follow that you would fear an even more powerful entity like government yet.... you would assure that they were even more powerful?  Perhaps you feel that the government will allways be in agreement with your beliefs?

lazs

Your right they are both powerful entities.  

I am not anti-gun, I just think we need to do something and I am not sure what. Quite a few gun threads come and go and even though I argue for some measures it is doubtful anything would stem the problem.

Now that being said, I trust the government partly, not explicitly because in order for them to do some crazy stuff to the American people they would need the backing of the military and or law enforcement. Now I sincerly doubt that either of those organizations is gonna go along with something that is gonna wind up killing lots of Americans. I have faith in the military and police to do whats right regardless of what their "ordered" to do. Those guys are just average joes.

Religion is a lot more dangerous because of the fanaticalism that tends to arise out of it. This isnt a thread about religion though so i will stop with that.

[Raider179]

Originally posted by Yeager
I have herad recently that new jersey law makers are considering a bill that would confiscate the personal property of citizens found to have unregistered firearms.  For all intents and purposes the state would be confiscating the homes and vehicles of people who by most reasonable standards would be a law abiding citizens with the exception that they failed to register their rifles and handguns.

I would not take kindly to that sort of infringement if I were unfortunate enough to live in new jersery.

I dont agree with that either. Maybe take the fire-arm, MAYBE. You can't seize someone's home for not registering a gun, unless they are a criminal then throw the book at em.Got a link to the law?

[bustr]

Originally posted by Raider179
Your right they are both powerful entities.  

I am not anti-gun, I just think we need to do something and I am not sure what. Quite a few gun threads come and go and even though I argue for some measures it is doubtful anything would stem the problem.

Now that being said, I trust the government partly, not explicitly because in order for them to do some crazy stuff to the American people they would need the backing of the military and or law enforcement. Now I sincerly doubt that either of those organizations is gonna go along with something that is gonna wind up killing lots of Americans. I have faith in the military and police to do whats right regardless of what their "ordered" to do. Those guys are just average joes.

Religion is a lot more dangerous because of the fanaticalism that tends to arise out of it. This isnt a thread about religion though so i will stop with that.

No it only took Ruby Ridge and Waco under the watch of a guy respecting the office by getting freebies in a side closet.

[Raider179]

Originally posted by bustr
No it only took Ruby Ridge and Waco under the watch of a guy respecting the office by getting freebies in a side closet.

1) Both parties should have came out to law enforcement after they were identified. Not saying Weaver's wife deserved to be shot, she clearly did not but thats why when the government wants to talk to you, you might wanna think about coming out for a watermelon chat.

2) Like that office has never seen freebies. lmao

[Elfie]

Originally posted by Raider179
1) Both parties should have came out to law enforcement after they were identified. Not saying Weaver's wife deserved to be shot, she clearly did not but thats why when the government wants to talk to you, you might wanna think about coming out for a watermelon chat.

2) Like that office has never seen freebies. lmao

http://land.netonecom.net/tlp/ref/weaver.shtml

Surrender to agents who just shot your dog (w/o provocation), then your son who only sees masked men in camoflage fires back and is killed? I wouldnt.

Interesting that in the trial concerning the Ruby Ridge incident that the defense didnt call any witnesses, convinced that the 50+ prosecution witnesses had destroyed the gov'ts case. They were right.

It's also interesting that no federal agents have been brought to trial for the murder of Vicki and Sammy Weaver.

[bustr]

It's been my long experience that the only time the government wants to talk to you is the prelude to taking your money, property, freedom or life. Otherwise you mean nothing to them but a social security number at the IRS.

You'll have to excuse me, both of my parents retired form the NSA and my sister worked for the Bureau of Reclamation, Indian Affaires. I grew up in the Militairy because of my father and with family freinds who were militairy, Federal Agents and NSA spooks.

Our government is not the nicest in the world, but is better than many................

[Raider179]

Originally posted by Elfie
http://land.netonecom.net/tlp/ref/weaver.shtml

Surrender to agents who just shot your dog (w/o provocation), then your son who only sees masked men in camoflage fires back and is killed? I wouldnt.

Interesting that in the trial concerning the Ruby Ridge incident that the defense didnt call any witnesses, convinced that the 50+ prosecution witnesses had destroyed the gov'ts case. They were right.

It's also interesting that no federal agents have been brought to trial for the murder of Vicki and Sammy Weaver.

Did you just not read where I said AFTER they were identified as agents?

As for the trial thing, that is the kind of thing that happens when everyone owns guns.

[Elfie]

Originally posted by Raider179
Did you just not read where I said AFTER they were identified as agents?

As for the trial thing, that is the kind of thing that happens when everyone owns guns.

First, what does the trial have to do with everyone owning guns? Btw, not everyone owns a gun.

Second, in an incident like what happened at Ruby Ridge I would NOT talk to any of the Federal agents. I would NOT surrender to them.

From the link I posted:

As part of their efforts to make contact with the Weavers, the FBI sent a robot with a telephone to the cabin. But the robot also had a shotgun pointed at the door, so the Weavers feared that reaching for the phone could result in death or injury

Would you reach for the phone the robot was holding when you saw it had a shotgun pointed at the door? I wouldnt and I bet you wouldnt either.

The gov't screwed the pooch at Ruby Ridge.

Marshall service witnesses told about a series of pre-siege scenarios to root Weaver out of his cabin. But when pressed by the defense, they said they never considered simply knocking on the door and arresting him.

[bustr]

Originally posted by Raider179
Did you just not read where I said AFTER they were identified as agents?

As for the trial thing, that is the kind of thing that happens when everyone owns guns.

Sure and then we would have a trial sooner and with less open information to the general public because only the government has the guns so you cannot resist what your personal convictions tell you is a violation of your constitutional and natural rights. His resistance is exactly what the 2nd Amendment was created for. The government acting in open violation of his rights. The trial proved he was setup and his rights violated. But the government always has to save its face because you dared to embarrase it................

His son only knew that his dog had been harmed on his fathers "Private" property. The Marshals did not simply walk up to the front door and identify themselves. Bull compost on them being afraid he was armed, it was his private property and right to be armed against assailants of his life and families life and freedom. They snuck around in the brush like assasins. In that situation I would have shot the jack arse Marshals also.

Raider you seem to want us to bend over every time the government tells us to drop em and spread em. If you think its such a great idea, please take all of our turns for the next 50 years. I'll be glad to put your SSN on any gov docs I sign from now on...............

[Raider179]

Originally posted by bustr
Sure and then we would have a trial sooner and with less open information to the general public because only the government has the guns so you cannot resist what your personal convictions tell you is a violation of your constitutional and natural rights. His resistance is exactly what the 2nd Amendment was created for. The government acting in open violation of his rights. The trial proved he was setup and his rights violated. But the government always has to save its face because you dared to embarrase it................

His son only knew that his dog had been harmed on his fathers "Private" property. The Marshals did not simply walk up to the front door and identify themselves. Bull compost on them being afraid he was armed, it was his private property and right to be armed against assailants of his life and families life and freedom. They snuck around in the brush like assasins. In that situation I would have shot the jack arse Marshals also.

Raider you seem to want us to bend over every time the government tells us to drop em and spread em. If you think its such a great idea, please take all of our turns for the next 50 years. I'll be glad to put your SSN on any gov docs I sign from now on...............

So explain how Weaver having guns protected him? looks like to me it cost him his wife and son and dog. Its a dangerous thing to have guns around wether for protection or fun.  I will not defend the actions of the agents but  I will defend the governments right to investigate "criminals". They are not always right about who is a criminal though and this is case in point.

So the son shot at someone that killed his dog? Thats pretty rough retaliation. Sounds like just what I said. Guns are dangerous. Especially in the hands of children.

How many times has the government told you to bend over and spread them? Zero? If it asked me to I would, what I wouldn't do is go reaching for my gun and start yelling about my freedoms and liberties.  I like my government and I appreciate that it tries to act in the public good. Even if sometimes the wrong people get in charge. Weaver was exonerated correct? So the system works even if the people failed it.

 By being a citizen of the state you agree to allow the government to govern you. You are not forced to live in America or anywhere else, you do so by choice and by making that choice thereby agree to follow all laws, even the ones that bend you over. Signing documents is a big deal? man who do you think is in charge, the Gestappo? lol Oh no the evil government knows I own 50 rifles. lol

[Raider179]

Originally posted by Elfie
First, what does the trial have to do with everyone owning guns? Btw, not everyone owns a gun.

Second, in an incident like what happened at Ruby Ridge I would NOT talk to any of the Federal agents. I would NOT surrender to them.

 Would you reach for the phone the robot was holding when you saw it had a shotgun pointed at the door? I wouldnt and I bet you wouldnt either.

The gov't screwed the pooch at Ruby Ridge.

1)If the weavers wouldnt have been armed this wouldnt have happened. Hard to prosecute a law enforcement officer for shooting people who refuse to surrender and have guns. I know about his wife so yeah like you say they screwed the pooch.  btw it was a figure of speech.

2)Sorry but I do not agree with your no surrender policy. That is just the way you get Waco'd.

3)I have no idea how I would act in his situation becaue I would never allow myself to get into one like that. Holding the Feds at bay just isnt my bag.

[bustr]

If you have ever read the full story about Ruby ridge his son was a trained and competent marksmen and hunter because part of the families survival was hunting. They lived in the boonies and his son had also neede to deal with four legged predators. Children who live in rural areas very often are thaught to handlel firearms and hunt at an early age. I've known children who killed and dressed their first dear at 6.

The constitution does not make the government our masters, nor give them the right to act in the manner they did. Last I checked the document said We the People. The governments power is vested by us to them as a privlage. The second amendment recognises each individuals right as the Right of the People. You act as though "living at any cost" for 1 second longer is worth more than standing your ground for your life and freedom and risking your life. Peace is easy. Just don't resist no matter what. You can have peace in handcuffs, a jail cell, flat of your back with a hole in your chest, harrased by BATF and the IRS. But peace is not freedom, it has always cost lives.  

The transition of Germany from a democracy to a totalitarian dictatorship happened in the blink of an eye through a legal system of elections. The population wanted to beleive in the imagery in Hitlers promises of the future. Much of the german intelligensia beleived as you do about resisting the government or that the government could ever become detrimental to the citizens of Germany. All the guns were registered then confiscated. The jews took gas baths. And in the end what a great flight simm the whole ugly episode has enabled us to play in.

[Elfie]

2)Sorry but I do not agree with your no surrender policy. That is just the way you get Waco'd.

I didnt say I wouldnt surrender at all, I just wouldnt surrender to the thugs that instigated the events at Ruby Ridge. I would most likely do like Randy Weaver did and surrender to a 3rd party just to ensure my family and my own safety.

Hard to prosecute a law enforcement officer for shooting people who refuse to surrender and have guns.

At no point prior to shots being fired did the Federal agents identify themselves as Federal agents. You CAN prosecute those agents for violations of civil rights and for murder.

If the weavers wouldnt have been armed this wouldnt have happened.

If the Weavers hadnt been armed?    The 2nd amendment guarantees their right to be armed. If the US Marshalls and FBI had followed their own ROE this wouldnt have happened. If the Feds had attempted to arrest Weaver away from his home this wouldnt have happened. If the Feds had identified themselves as such this wouldnt have happened.

So explain how Weaver having guns protected him? looks like to me it cost him his wife and son and dog.

Failure to follow sop on the part of the Feds cost Mr. Weaver his wife, son and dog.

It all started with the Feds entrapping Randy Weaver. The Feds were in the wrong the whole way through this mess. The sad part is no one has ever apologized to Randy Weaver and family.


*edit* forgot to add this:

So the son shot at someone that killed his dog? Thats pretty rough retaliation.

First, read the article and you would see that he didnt just *shoot at someone who shot his dog*.  He shot at a masked man in camoflage that shot his dog. The masked man in camoflage was a US Marshall that failed to identify himself as such. I see absolutely no reason for federal agents to wear masks and camoflage. In this situation I would most likely fear for my life and shoot back also. Btw the courts determined that Kevin Harris and the Weavers were acting in (legal) self defense.

[Raider179]

Originally posted by bustr
If you have ever read the full story about Ruby ridge his son was a trained and competent marksmen and hunter because part of the families survival was hunting. They lived in the boonies and his son had also neede to deal with four legged predators. Children who live in rural areas very often are thaught to handlel firearms and hunt at an early age. I've known children who killed and dressed their first dear at 6.

The constitution does not make the government our masters, nor give them the right to act in the manner they did. Last I checked the document said We the People. The governments power is vested by us to them as a privlage. The second amendment recognises each individuals right as the Right of the People. You act as though "living at any cost" for 1 second longer is worth more than standing your ground for your life and freedom and risking your life. Peace is easy. Just don't resist no matter what. You can have peace in handcuffs, a jail cell, flat of your back with a hole in your chest, harrased by BATF and the IRS. But peace is not freedom, it has always cost lives.  

The transition of Germany from a democracy to a totalitarian dictatorship happened in the blink of an eye through a legal system of elections. The population wanted to beleive in the imagery in Hitlers promises of the future. Much of the german intelligensia beleived as you do about resisting the government or that the government could ever become detrimental to the citizens of Germany. All the guns were registered then confiscated. The jews took gas baths. And in the end what a great flight simm the whole ugly episode has enabled us to play in.

Just to make sure I got this right... The agent shot the dog, the kid shot at the agent, the agent killed the kid, then harris killed the agent. Is that the right sequence of events (as they are best known)? You can not shoot someone for killing your dog. That is what I mean by kids having guns is a disaster waiting to happen.

good flight sim though

[Raider179]

Originally posted by Elfie


*edit* forgot to add this:

 First, read the article and you would see that he didnt just *shoot at someone who shot his dog*.  He shot at a masked man in camoflage that shot his dog. The masked man in camoflage was a US Marshall that failed to identify himself as such. I see absolutely no reason for federal agents to wear masks and camoflage. In this situation I would most likely fear for my life and shoot back also. Btw the courts determined that Kevin Harris and the Weavers were acting in (legal) self defense.

I would have ran and got my dad.