Author Topic: Do you believe in Democracy?  (Read 3244 times)

Offline Wanker

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Do you believe in Democracy?
« on: November 29, 2000, 10:34:00 AM »
Sometimes I really wonder. Guys like Toad are pretty open-minded and willing to look at the issue and be as objective as possible. <S> Toad!

To all the Republicans having a field day in here: Would you be happy if there were only one political party in the US? From what most of you are posting, it seems that you don't even want two or more political parties in American anymore. Believing one side is misguided is one thing, but the out and out hostility toward all democrats or liberals in this BBS makes me question your attitude toward democracy in principle.

I'm a person that loves debate. But I've been very wary of posting in here because most of you don't seem to believe in debate. You have some inborn hostility that is boiling to the surface, and you're not willing to try to step back and look at things objectively. You accuse the "dems" or the "libs" of using the points of law to suit their needs, yet you do precisely the same thing.

If you guys want a country without a democratic party, just say so. We can then proceed with the book burnings and the deportations.  

I have two grandfathers, both of whom are/were liberal democrats, and they both fought for this country in WWII. One of them died in battle, one of them survived. The way you guys act, you make it sound like the only people that care for this country or have made sacrifices for it are Republicans.

So, do you believe in Democracy or not?

Offline Nash

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Do you believe in Democracy?
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2000, 11:07:00 AM »
Ya know, it leaves me scratching my head too.

I think the hostility for the Democrats to such a degree is unprecedented in (at least modern) political history. When Clinton took over, there seemed to be this perception that he *stole* the office. That he *stole* the Republican wedge issues (crime/welfare). That he revived a Democratic party that the Republicans declared dead only a year prior. It was illegitimate, it was an aberration. We've all seen the last 8 years and what followed from the day of his inauguration... a concerted effort, an almost diabolical (we were so close!) obsession with ousting Clinton. That he defied them only enraged them more.

Why was that?

Now we've got Gore...who we've nary heard a peep from in those last 8 years, and *he's* suddenly transformed into the new anti-Christ. Oh the absolute HATE for Gore.

Dammit those bastards are stealing it again!

Why is that?

It's really damaging stuff. Poison.

Offline Kieren

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« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2000, 11:10:00 AM »
Now, wait a moment...

Of course I like democracy, and value a differing opinion. Let me lay out my feelings as clearly as I can:[list=1]
  • I believe Bill Clinton is the most unflappable, bold-faced liar we have ever seen in American politics. I think so much has happened amongst Bill/Hillary/Al that is illicit I cannot separate them. Al has displayed a penchant for lying on his own, so I don't even need to fall back on the Clinton administration for any more of an opinion on him.
  • I honestly believe Al Gore will sell our butts down the river if it furthers him in any way. Accepting campaign contributions from the Chinese in '96 is treason IMO.
  • Mr. Gore has a habit of smearing his opponents. Did you watch the Democratic debates, and what he did to Bill Bradley? He flatly lied about Bradley at every turn, and dragged him through the mud. He now has his surrogates out there calling the Republicans "fascists" and "nazis". He was *this* close to investigating the backgrounds of potential electors- why?
  • His continual statements that this election isn't about him, but his fight to ensure democracy and the Constitution is protected is transparent as his personality. It is win at all costs, and he doesn't care who gets hurt in the process. He is fighting to get 15,000 more ballots excluded (Republican), and CNN is reporting Gore's team has succeeded in getting 3,600 selected ballots sent to Tallahassee- and you know that means they will be counted again, most likely under Gore standards. This is ironic, because he had gone to the FLC to enable local canvassing boards to count if they wanted to, and to set what standards they would. When they didn't join lockstep in PBC, Gore sued. Now their position is that local canvassing boards need to be told how to count.
  • I am sick of hearing Democratic supporters talk about Republican rioting. Funny, not one arrest, not one burnt-out car, not one case of looting, no riot police visible... This on the heels of Lieberman's "let's tone down the rhetoric" speech. This was not Watts, or Berkeley, or L.A. by any means.
  • I am sick of Jesse Jackson trying to play the race card.
  • I am sick that the Democratic party planned, executed, and implicitly endorsed excluding service votes.
  • I am sick of lawsuits that seek to circumvent law. Did you watch that Florida judge take that jackal Bois to the woodshed yesterday? Bois said he "objected to the ballot", not the canvassing board whom he said did their job correctly. "What have the ballots done to you?" asked the judge. Bois knows he cannot directly contest the canvassing board, so he is trying to contest an inanimate object instead. A legal sidestep. He sought to have the process circumvented by having the remedy delivered before judgement on whether or not a remedy is warranted. This is like two brothers fighting over a slice of pie. One brother says "let me eat the piece of pie now, because if you decide I should get it I won't have time to eat it later". He in the process would be denying the Republicans due process- of course in the name of protecting the Constitution.  
  • There are some who have posted here in the Democratic cause who have IMO sought only to stir the pot. Sure, they make some great points, but then when someone makes a legitimate retort they ignore it and jump on another issue. This is not debate.[/list=a]

    Does that clarify, at least in my case? I am not against Democrats here on the board, but the DNC has behaved miserably not only in Florida, but during the entire 8 years of the Clinton administration. I can't guarantee Bush will be any better than Clinton; I can easily guarantee Gore won't be. I have 8 years of watching this administration to help me formulate my opinion, and frankly I would have voted for the Republican mascot before I ever cast a vote for Gore.

    [This message has been edited by Kieren (edited 11-29-2000).]

Offline Gunthr

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Do you believe in Democracy?
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2000, 11:25:00 AM »
I believe that we need at least two parties in the USA for a healthy airing of issues.

I've always been an independent, and have voted democratic in the past, but more often republican.

For my own part, I've become passionately conservative since Bill/Hillary Clinton entered the Whitehouse. (Actually, outraged is the word that comes to mind.)

If you are an unhappy Democrat, I think you can lay the blame for much of the vitriol you describe right on Clinton's doorstep. I also believe that the differences in attitudes and beliefs of "middle America" and "major city dwellers" have been steadily growing apart, no doubt because of the demographics.

But I wonder why some liberals cannot understand why it would make a citizen angry when the President of the USA gets blowjobs in the oval office, using appallingly poor judgement, and forces the nation's kids to learn about these things perhaps before they are ready, and then lies to Americans while looking them right in the face???

What is the difference between me and you that leaves me outraged with this kind of leadership, but apparently leaves you unaffected??? And that is only one issue.

Yep, there is no doubt about it, conservative Americans are angry.

:/
Gunthr
"When I speak I put on a mask. When I act, I am forced to take it off."  - Helvetius 18th Century

Offline Fatty

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Do you believe in Democracy?
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2000, 11:29:00 AM »
 
Quote
If you guys want a country without a democratic party, just say so. We can then proceed with the book burnings and the deportations.

Open dialogue, outside of stereotypes you say?  Just come out and say republicans are facists if you're going to, let's not beat around the bush (no pun).

Fact is it's going to get heated discussing politics, there's no way around it.  The percentage of hard core seems to be about the same on each side, but for whatever reason it looks like there are more republicans in Aces High than democrats, so that similar percentage translates to a lot more people.

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2000, 11:30:00 AM »
 Democracies tend to self-destruct with time. The main reason for that is that more emphasis is put on the rights and less on the responcibilities.
 So more and more unproductive people start voting themselves wealth taken from the productive people. That causes the number of productive people to go down.

 Whatever was applicable at the time of your grandfathers may be completely different now. Then welfare was a tool to help few people in trouble to get back on their feet.
 Now wealfare is the reason for a whole multi-generation class of fast-breeding voting drones.

miko

Offline Dowding

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Do you believe in Democracy?
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2000, 11:41:00 AM »
Kieren:

 
Quote
I believe Bill Clinton is the most unflappable, bold-faced liar we have ever seen in American politics.

Gunthr:

 
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...and then lies to Americans while looking them right in the face???

N.I.X.O.N.

 
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...the President of the USA gets blowjobs in the oval office...

How about Kennedy's well documented womanising? Can you say with absolute conviction that Kennedy never pursued one of his affairs within the White House?

He was a great president, but like all great men, they are flawed and have vices.

I'll never vote for a person who appears perfect (an impossibility IMO)- there would be something wrong with the country I lived in if that was the case.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2000, 11:45:00 AM »
Our system of government was formed by the Republic.


On a side note: Even Gores upper echelons  are calling for him to stop, step down and concede: http://www.msnbc.com/news/496118.asp#BODY

Offline Kieren

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« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2000, 12:03:00 PM »
Won't wash, Dowding. I accept that people are flawed. I also accept that people are accountable for those actions. What you seem to suggest is that, since no one is perfect, lying must be ok. Substitute your vice of choice for "lying", and you can extrapolate that it is possible that, in time, anything will go.

Clinton lied not only to all of us, but in his deposition in the Paula Jones case. It was a felony, not a faux paus. He denied Paula Jones due process- and the express purpose of the Executive Branch of our government is to make certain laws are carried out. This in itself is an impeachable offense.

If I had done half of what Clinton has done, I surely would have lost my job and gone to prison. I wonder how many people sitting in federal prison right now feel there is a double-standard in American law?

Clinton has had people fall on grenades for him since he took office. He is hated by conservatives for a reason. I won't miss that lip-biting, finger-wagging, wife-cheating, missile-secret-selling, draft-dodging SOB one bit.

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2000, 12:16:00 PM »
Anyone read articles lately about the rise of teen oral sex in schools?  Yep.  They think its okay for reasons in this order:

A) The president does it, so it must not be that wrong.
B) You cannot get sexually transmitted diseases.

Both accounts are wrong.  A) The president did a shameful thing after "The People" elected him into office (I, for one, can say from 1992.."I told you so!")  His 'legend' into the history books will be that of a shameful man put in a position to abuse his power and the first president to be impeached.

and B) You CAN get sexually transmitted diseases from oral sex.

[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 11-29-2000).]

Offline Wanker

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« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2000, 12:56:00 PM »
Kieren said:
Quote
He is hated by conservatives for a reason. I won't miss that lip-biting, finger-wagging, wife-cheating, missile-secret-selling, draft-dodging SOB one bit.

He is also hated by some democrats for the same reasons. Personally, I think he should've been run out of town on a rail after he looked at the camera and lied to America. But. IMHO, Al Gore is not Bill Clinton. I don't put Gerald Ford in the same boat with the trickster, either.

Ripsnort said:
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...and the first president to be impeached.

Erm, perhaps you've forgotten about Andrew Johnson? 1868 dude. Time to check your history sources, Rip.

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2000, 01:24:00 PM »
Let me rephrase that: "1st president to be impeached by perjuring under oath."

Jackson was also a democrat.

Offline Wanker

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« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2000, 01:30:00 PM »
LOL Rip. It's Andrew JOHNSON, not Jackson!  

Offline Wanker

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« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2000, 01:31:00 PM »
Oh, and btw...

How far down the list was "Because it feels so good" in that oral sex report?  

Offline easymo

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« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2000, 01:37:00 PM »
 There is no democratic party in the sense that it was founded, and existed in the past. Can you imagine what Harry Truman would have thought of clinton. He would have kicked his ass, personally, for what he has done to the honor of the office of the presidency. gore has learned, from his boss, that you can get away with anything, with the right sound bite.

 The republicans have nothing to brag about here. They didn't have the backbone to kick clinton out. And now they are paying for it with gore. In the end, we Americans are the ones paying for it. By being embarrassed  yet again, by the clinton/gore white house.