Author Topic: Russian classrooms reverting to soviet version of history (Read 3788 times)

dedalos · « **Reply #60 on:** June 01, 2005, 10:39:05 AM »

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Originally posted by parker00
when did i say we were better than anyone or that i knew everyone's history? I was just making a point to boroda that he always denies the bad things about russia. I know we have done things wrong but we don't sit out here and deny every one of them. So you know where you put that big white horse of yours????

My bad. I did not realize this was not about how mach better we are than everyone else

Boroda · « **Reply #61 on:** June 01, 2005, 12:19:07 PM »

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Originally posted by spitfiremkv
Listen, I really hate communism and everything the Soviet Union has done, but, if not the outcome, the methods employed in treating the undesired were different, less...systematic. I don't think I've ever heard of gas chambers in the USSR. The allies were idiotic in turning in so many prisoners to the USSR. I like what I heard about Patton, who was so sure a war was going to start with the USSR he started re-training German POWs.

Isn't it strange that "allies" were "re-training German POWs"? In other words - they armed and employed nazi troops!

Can you notice a difference in attitude? It's what all the topic is about. Imagine your history written in such colours?

About prisoners: I have heard about agreements to repatriate Soviet collaborators, but OTOH "allies" gave asylum to many nazi war criminals.

My Grand-Uncle, who escaped from a German concentration camp, became a commander of an "interned persons camp" in American occupation zone in 44 or 45. Unfortunately I can't ask him for details, he died 3 years ago at the age of 93

The reason for giving up nazi POWs to Soviet side was probably aware that nazis fled to the West to be captured by "allies", who, as you said, were "re-trained" and maybe even left them with their weapons. There must have been some kind of agreement between sides.

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Originally posted by spitfiremkv
That being said, I think the Nuremberg trial is one of the biggest farces of last century: Commies prosecuting Nazis

This is an attitude that I hope isn't shared by our authorities, and IMHO it must be fought by all means. Equating Communism with nazism is a hypocritical and immoral thing. The only possible excuse for it is maybe total brainwasing and misinformation. Sorry.

Your last statement is a justification of nazism - a deliberate policy of physical elimination of millions of people by ethnic criterion, aimed on turning whole nations into speechless slaves.

It's sad to see how Western propaganda, using Goebbels's inventions, justifies nazism in fever of anticommunistic and antirussian hysteria.

Now I really sound like good old Pravda from early-80s...

Probably a proper way to speak to modern McCarthyists.

Boroda · « **Reply #62 on:** June 01, 2005, 12:27:37 PM »

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Originally posted by parker00
when did i say we were better than anyone or that i knew everyone's history? I was just making a point to boroda that he always denies the bad things about russia. I know we have done things wrong but we don't sit out here and deny every one of them. So you know where you put that big white horse of yours????

I don't deny facts. I deny the interpetation based on the "Russia is the mother of all evil" attitude.

Like Ukrainian famine can be interpreted in two ways:

1) It was one of the last mass-starvations in Russian history, definetly not the largest compared to 1922 or 1906.

2) It was a genocide of Ukrainian people by Evil Stalin.

Second POW is based on the attitude I mentioned, and a "fact that everyone knows" that Stalin's goal always was to kill as many people as he could. If you can tell me any practical reasons for deliberately killing "millions" of Ukrainians (and Russians at Volga who are always forgotten - who cares for untermenschen?) - then please enlighten me.

Hangtime · « **Reply #63 on:** June 01, 2005, 12:29:04 PM »

LOL Boroda.. quit dancing. Polka & Russians don't mix.

Yup.. we grabbed as many scientists and intel people as we could.. so did your side. Interred troops listing home addresses in the soviet zone of occupation were repatariated to the soviets. Your guys were supposed to repatriate captured troops with western zone home addresses to our side and never did; but that was just one of many early violations your happy mother raping and father stabbing occupation troops committed.

As for retaining 'nazi' troops.. no we didn't re-train the SS. We did however employ some whermacht and luftwaffe troops in Patton's area.. seems the old bastard was correct in assuming who the next enemy was gonna be.

Eat any babies lately?

spitfiremkv · « **Reply #64 on:** June 01, 2005, 05:26:29 PM »

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Originally posted by Boroda
I

This is an attitude that I hope isn't shared by our authorities, and IMHO it must be fought by all means.

maybe by shooting anyone who doesn't share the views of your authorities?

Hangtime · « **Reply #65 on:** June 01, 2005, 06:41:48 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Boroda
I don't deny facts. I deny the interpetation based on the "Russia is the mother of all evil" attitude.

Like Ukrainian famine can be interpreted in two ways:

1) It was one of the last mass-starvations in Russian history, definetly not the largest compared to 1922 or 1906.

2) It was a genocide of Ukrainian people by Evil Stalin.

Second POW is based on the attitude I mentioned, and a "fact that everyone knows" that Stalin's goal always was to kill as many people as he could. If you can tell me any practical reasons for deliberately killing "millions" of Ukrainians (and Russians at Volga who are always forgotten - who cares for untermenschen?) - then please enlighten me.

Boroda, my commie conditioned knee-jerk reactionist stalin apologist friend..

Russia is not the mother of all Evils... it's just quite a few of it's governments are all in the Evil family.

Stalin was a mass-murderer that made hitler look like an amatuer. His sanity is just as questionable as hitlers, his methods just as evil. He get's the #1 spot based on quantity of methods.. not quality. Which is fitting.. as it was Unca Joe himself that said "Quantity has a Quality all it's own".

Now, had Unca Joe been a bit less of a parnoid mass murderer and retained his officer corps instead of havin the NKVD plug 'em in the back of the head, he'd a had an army to oppose hitler with in 1940...

If he had not shot most of his civil administrators and academians, possibly his troops would have had rifles instead of shovels and rakes prior to the war.

The russian people suffered horribly under his 'rule'.. and I find it kinda sad that a reasonably intelligent human being could look at this guy's track record and pronounce him a 'hero of the soviet union'. Bode's ill for the rest of the world that he's being restored to the pantheon of 'russian hero's'.

Kruschev was right. The guy was an evil bastard.

Vad · « **Reply #66 on:** June 01, 2005, 06:51:26 PM »

Boroda, I have always wanted to know what do you want to prove?

Òû ïðîèçâîäèøü âïå÷àòëåíèå íåãëóïîãî ÷åëîâåêà, íî ÿ íå ìîãó ïîíÿòü, çà÷åì òåáå ýòî íàäî? Åñëè òû ñìîòðåë (÷èòàë) Øâàðöà " Óáåé Äðàêîíà", òî òû äîëæåí ïîìíèòü: " Íàñ âñåõ òàê ó÷èëè. Íî íå âñå ñòàëè ïåðâûìè ó÷åíèêàìè!" Òàê âîò îíè - âñå ïåðâûå ó÷åíèêè. È èõ íåâîçìîæíî ïåðåóáåäèòü.

Äà è íå íóæíî, íà ìîé âçãëÿä.

Hangtime · « **Reply #67 on:** June 01, 2005, 06:59:29 PM »

Vad, care to share that with us in english?

Vad · « **Reply #68 on:** June 01, 2005, 07:13:31 PM »

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Originally posted by Hangtime
Vad, care to share that with us in english?

I didn't want to offend anybody but it is not too easy to translate it in English. I will try but I believe you will not understand anyway.

[translation]
Boroda, you don't show an impression of foolish person but I can't understand why do you do that? If you saw (read) Shvarc's (russian writer) "Kill the dragon" you have to remeber the phrase: " We are all were learnt that way but not all of us became the A-grade students". They are all A-grade students, and you can't overpersuade them.

And you don't have to do that, I think.
[/translation]

Hangtime · « **Reply #69 on:** June 01, 2005, 07:28:05 PM »

I get the gist.. understood.

And thanks!!

Vad · « **Reply #70 on:** June 01, 2005, 07:40:47 PM »

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Originally posted by Hangtime
I get the gist.. understood.

You can't.
If you didn't read Shvarc

spitfiremkv · « **Reply #71 on:** June 01, 2005, 08:25:44 PM »

Here's all the Russian one needs to learn:

Stalin=ciort
Lenin=pizda
Krushcev=curva

Hangtime · « **Reply #72 on:** June 01, 2005, 08:36:01 PM »

assuming 'a grade student' refers to students the state would consider 'educatable' or 'receptive to propaganda', I think I got it.

It's not a concept the west is unfamiliar with.

Vad · « **Reply #73 on:** June 01, 2005, 08:44:28 PM »

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Originally posted by Hangtime
assuming 'a grade student' refers to students the state would consider 'educatable' or 'receptive to propaganda', I think I got it.

It's not a concept the west is unfamiliar with.

From our point of view it is much more complicated but as the first step it is ok.

Hangtime · « **Reply #74 on:** June 01, 2005, 09:03:51 PM »

everything is more complicated in Russia... particularly ideas, concepts and in particular 'politics'.

I used to smile every time a russian mentioned 'Pravda'. It translates as 'truth'.. in the west that's a pretty simple concept. But in russia it's a whole lot more complicated than that.