Happy memorial day & 38 story

[agent 009]

Sopke to my 38 pilot neighbor today. He told me they used to tangle with Corsair pilots from Santa Barbara in their 38's out of Santa Maria. Said that we would go into tight turns & the Corsairs would often spin. I asked specifically if he meant slow speed stalls, He said no, high speed stalls.

I asked him who came out best, he said I'd say we did, but I'm not biased. A Corsair pilot died as result of a spin & they were then ordered not to fly north past a certain point.

[BUG_EAF322]

nice story.

[Rafe35]

Originally posted by agent 009
Sopke to my 38 pilot neighbor today. He told me they used to tangle with Corsair pilots from Santa Barbara in their 38's out of Santa Maria. Said that we would go into tight turns & the Corsairs would often spin. I asked specifically if he meant slow speed stalls, He said no, high speed stalls.

I asked him who came out best, he said I'd say we did, but I'm not biased. A Corsair pilot died as result of a spin & they were then ordered not to fly north past a certain point.

Did you ask him what variant of the Corsair (Navy or Marine and what year?)?

I like to find more about that, Agent 009.

[agent 009]

Well he flew 51 missions in the 38 L in pacific. So I would imagine it was either in a J or an L. I didn't ask. But if it was early in his training it might have been a J. Don't know bout Corsair. he flew towards end of war & saw very few e/a. Lot of strafing missions out of Phillipines.

He told me about strafing a Japanese ship in a river with trees on side. He saw an opening between 2 trees & was concentrating on waterline when he realised he was too close to trees to go over them, so he went sideways through them, then noticed he was right between 2 stacks of ship & figured there would be a cable between em, but he sailed through & nothing happened.

[Rafe35]

Originally posted by agent 009
Well he flew 51 missions in the 38 L in pacific. So I would imagine it was either in a J or an L. I didn't ask. But if it was early in his training it might have been a J. Don't know bout Corsair. he flew towards end of war & saw very few e/a. Lot of strafing missions out of Phillipines.

He told me about strafing a Japanese ship in a river with trees on side. He saw an opening between 2 trees & was concentrating on waterline when he realised he was too close to trees to go over them, so he went sideways through them, then noticed he was right between 2 stacks of ship & figured there would be a cable between em, but he sailed through & nothing happened.

I figure that he might flew P-38J-10 (Or whatever) while 'tangle' with Corsair in Southern California and for L model, I really don't think L model saw in Pacific War, but I could be wrong about this that I think L model enter service in late 1944 or 1945 (Guppy or others will likely answer well).

I don't think I believe the Corsair (Either Marine/Navy) Pilots were ordered not to fly north past a certain point and likely there is quite few air base that equip F3A/F4U/F4G aka FG Corsair in California.

[agent 009]

He flew L model late in war. & yes they were ordered not to fly north of a certain point so as to prevent em from dogfighting each other because of the Corsairs pilots death. That's what he told me. He's in his 80's, you don't argue with him.

[gripen]

AFAIK training units used often very early models of the P-38 and also the Model 322 without turbos, these were much lighter than late models.

gripen

edit: Model 322 was called RP-322 in training role.

[Rafe35]

Originally posted by agent 009
He flew L model late in war. & yes they were ordered not to fly north of a certain point so as to prevent em from dogfighting each other because of the Corsairs pilots death. That's what he told me. He's in his 80's, you don't argue with him.

Agent

I have nothing against him at all and same for you too, but I have doing alot research on Vought/Goodyear Corsair history since 3-4 years and it's really interesting to learn about them, but again I'm learning other WWII Fighters like P-51 Mustang, F-86 Sabre, etc.

My guess that the pilot who was killed in accident, likely flying a Brewster F3A-1 Corsair which it has alot engine problems (Unlike Vought/Goodyear Corsairs) and the F3A were used for training, but found out that alot trained pilots were killed when flying F3A.

So, I apologize to your neighbor and to you too, If I did anything offense....seriously.

[agent 009]

No offense. It is possible that the Corsair had a technical problem, just not how he remembered the story.

[Murdr]

Originally posted by Rafe35
I really don't think L model saw in Pacific War, but I could be wrong about this that I think L model enter service in late 1944 or 1945 (Guppy or others will likely answer well).

1,290 P-38L-1LO's delivered to the USAAF  June 44-Nov 44
2,200 P-38L-5LO's delivered between Oct 44-June 45

I really dont feel like combing through books for references, but I am sure of reading about L's in combat for the 5th AF.

As far as stories go....here are some snipets from Gen Kenney's book on Bong "Ace of Aces".

Shortly after 12 April 44.  Message from the Pentagon to Gen. Kenney

Concern is expressed over the high loss rate of fighter pilots who have shot down many enemy aircraft.  Your comments are requested concerning the desirability of restricting from action combat flying or return to United States of this type of personnel.  Acase in point is Captain Bong, who is credited with twenty-seven enemy aircraft.  Only very recently we have lost the invaluable services of Colonels Kearby and Lynch.

Arnold

Kenny promoted Bong to Major effective 12 April, the day he surpassed Rickenbacker's record.  On 3 May he was sent stateside for a publicity tour and gunnery school.  

When he returned to theater on 10 Sept he was assigned as an advanced gunnery instructor.  While he was allowed to observe his students on combat missions, he was ordered not to seek out the enemy, and to only engage the enemy in self defense.

11 Oct 44 From Gen Kenney to Gen Arnold:

During the strike on Balikpapan by five heavy-bomber groups on October 10th, Major Richard Bong in a P-38 accompanied the escorting fighters to observe the results of the gunnery instructions he had been giving since his return from the United States.  While conducting his observations, he was forced in self-defense to shoot down two Nip aircraft.  While regrettable, this brings his offical score to thirty enemy aircraft destroyed in aerial combat.  Have cautioned Bong to be more careful in the future.

Kenney

Congratulations to Major Bong on his continued mastery of the manly art of self-defense.  Feel sure your warning will have desired effect

Arnold

A few weeks later Kenney inspected the freshly captured airfields on Leyte Island.  Work on Tacloban strip was not complete but enough surface was laid that an experienced 38 pilot could land on it.  Kenney wired General Whitehead for 34 P-38s, and send nothing but experts on short landings in this first contingent.  Bong managed to find a seat in one of those 34 P-38s on 27 Oct.

29 OCT to Gen Arnold

In accordance with my instructions, Major Richard Bong is trying to be careful, but the Nips won't do their part.  On the twenty-seventh, five hours after arriving at Tacloban, Bong was again forced to defend himself and number thirty-one resulted.  On the twenty-eighth, while looking for suitable localities  for airdromes in the vicinity of Tacloban, he was assaulted by two more Nips who became numbers thirty-two and thirty-three.  Unless he was bothered again today, this is his latest score.

Kenney

A day or two later

Major Bong's excuses in matter of shooting down three more Nips noted with happy skepticism by this headquarters.  In Judge Advocate's opinion, he is liable under Articles of War 122 (willful or negligent damage to enemy equipment or personnel).

Arnold

Gen Kenney posted both messages on the 49thFG HQ bulletin board.

I got one more quote in mind for posting later

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Rafe35
I figure that he might flew P-38J-10 (Or whatever) while 'tangle' with Corsair in Southern California and for L model, I really don't think L model saw in Pacific War, but I could be wrong about this that I think L model enter service in late 1944 or 1945 (Guppy or others will likely answer well).
 

More P-38Ls were produced than any other model. It saw heavy service in the SWPA and CBI (49th, 475th, 18th, 80th and 8th FGs all flew the big L). It also saw service with the 9th AF in the ETO and the 15th AF in the MTO. A few Ls made it to 8th AF squadrons prior to transitioning to the P-51.

The first American aircraft to land in Japan after the surrender were a pair of P-38Ls from the 49th FG. On August 16th, while flying a routine patrol, one P-38 had fuel transfer problems and 49th CO Col. Tice decided to land at the nearest Japanese field, which turned out to be fighter base. They were joined later by a B-17 converted to a tanker, which was diverted to bring in enough gas for both Lightnings. Japanese mechanics used their manual fuel pumps to refuel both P-38s. A Japanese fuel truck had already arrived, but Tice thought that their fuel quality was not adequate for their Allisions, so he waited for the B-17 tanker to arrive. Upon refueling, the P-38s and B-17 took off and returned to their respective bases. While on the ground, they were treated with great respect by the Japanese, who were very much in awe of the tall Americans who were so bold as to land on their base within 48 hours of Japan announcing it had accepted the unconditional surrender demand.

My regards,

Widewing

[Guppy35]

Yep the Ls were arriving at the combat units around October-November 44.  

Tommy McGuire died in an L-5 if I remember right.

Most of the 38 air combat was done earlier though in the F/G/H and Js.

the 80th FS for example, had their last kill take place on December 29, 1944

Last 475th FG kill was January 24, 1945, so not long afterwards.

Interesting to note since there were still 8 months left of combat.

Edited to add.  The 475th FG history comments that the 431st Squadron operated some Ls alongside their J-20s in September 44.  the 432nd got their first 15 L models on September 29, 1944 and the 433rd didn't get L models until November 44.

Dan/CorkyJr

[Murdr]

Im a little late with that other story I wanted to post, but I already typed it out so....


Here is a humorous little informal AAR by Tom McGuire as told to, and recounted by General George Kenny....

"You see, General," said Tommy (McGuire), "that Fourty-ninth gang up at Tacloban didnt want Dick (Bong) going along with them any more, as he was stealing too many Nips from them, so he came down here to see if we would let him fly with the 475th. We figured we were good enough so we could take care of our own interests along that line, so we said it would be okay. This morning he saw me getting ready to take off for a look at the Jap fields over on Mindanno and suggested that he go along. I had a hunch I shouldnt have let him come with me, but I had to be polite, so I gave in. We picked up a wingman apiece and took off.

"we cruised all over the island looking for something to shoot at, but the bombers and strafers have about cleaned the place out. We had just decided to call it off and go home when we spotted a couple of Oscars just ahead of us, near Pamubulon Island, flying low just over the treetops. There were on my side and I figured mabey Dick hadnt seen them so I barely whispered over the radio to my wingman to follow me and I dive to take one of the Nips. One nice burst, and down he goes. I turn to knock off the other Oscar but this eavesdropping Bong (motioning to Dick who was now sitting across the tent grinning) had heard me talking to my wingman and had located the Nip. Before I could get in position, I saw him blow up and Bong pulls up alongside of me waggling his wings and grinning at me, like the highway robber he is. That makes him thirty-nine and me thirty-one. Im still eight behind. I bet when this war is over, they'll call me Eight Behind McGuire."

Two days later they patroled together again, and both scored an Oscar apiece again, after which Bong was pulled from combat.

[Debonair]

Originally posted by agent 009
Sopke to my 38 pilot neighbor today. He told me they used to tangle with Corsair pilots from Santa Barbara in their 38's out of Santa Maria. Said that we would go into tight turns & the Corsairs would often spin. I asked specifically if he meant slow speed stalls, He said no, high speed stalls.

I asked him who came out best, he said I'd say we did, but I'm not biased. A Corsair pilot died as result of a spin & they were then ordered not to fly north past a certain point.

Lockheed test pilot Tony Levier tells a similar story

[HoHun]

Hi Widewing,

>The first American aircraft to land in Japan after the surrender were a pair of P-38Ls from the 49th FG. On August 16th, while flying a routine patrol, one P-38 had fuel transfer problems and 49th CO Col. Tice decided to land at the nearest Japanese field, which turned out to be fighter base.

Hey, few people know about that! :-) I have a bit more on that event, but unfortunately, I lost the version with "all of the details" Clay refers to in a database crash.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

-----------

 FORWARDED MESSAGE - Orig: 08-May-95  22:26:56
 Subject: #WWII Introduction - Msg Number #812466
    From: Clay Tice, Jr. 76761,2765
      To: Jimmy Johnson{PKD] 70470,400
   Forum: AVSIG  Section: 16 - Hangar Flying
 -------------------------------------------------

 Jimmy,

 Alan Erickson's story "The Shootdown of Fibber McGee" would be hard to top so I'll forget combat for awhile.

 If you are a WWII history buff, you probably know that Gen. MacArthur landed in Japan on 30 August 1945 and accepted the surrender of Japan on 2 September on the battleship Missouri.  And according to William Manchester's "American Caesar - Douglas MacArthur 1880-1964"  ... "Japan, the only major power whose soil had never been sullied by the boot of an enemy soldier, lost that distinction at dawn on Tuesday, August 28, when Colonel Charles Tench, a member of MacArthur's staff, stepped from a C-47 and set foot on Atsugi's bomb-pocked runway".

 History is in error on two counts.  MacArthur was not the first to take the surrender of Japan nor was Col Tench the first to sully the Japanese soil.

 The following is a verbatim copy of a report:


                        HEADQUARTERS, 49TH FIGHTER GROUP
                                 ARMY AIR FORCES
                                         APO 337

                                                               26 August 1945

        The following is a statement of Lt. Col. CLAY TICE, JR., 0-421355, Commanding Officer, 49th Fighter Group, in regard to the emergency landing on the Japanese homeland on 25 August 1945.

        I was the leader of Jigger Red flight on 25 August 1945 when two planes of that flight landed on the mainland of Japan.  Our mission was a combat sweep around KYUSHU, across the southern tip of HONSHU, thence around SHIKOKUand return to base.  The plotted distance of the patrol was 1370 statute miles and flying time was estimated at six hours and forty-five minutes.  Instructions were given to hang a 310 gallon external tank in addition to the bomb load, and to fill the tanks to capacity.  Pilots were briefed thoroughly on the mission by myself and the length and duration of the mission were stressed.  Fuel consumption was estimated at 610 gallons allowing a one hour reserve.  Total gas carried was approximately 700 gallons.

        The flight, composed of eight P-38s of the 7th Fighter Squadron, plus one spare, was airborne from MOTUBA Strip at 0805.  Cruise on course and during sweep was 1800 rpm and 30"Hg in auto lean as briefed, with an indicated air speed of 180 mph.  Prior to making landfall on KYUSHU, two aircraft aborted and returned to base due to mechanical difficulty.  I made landfall at MAKURAZAKI at 0950.  A course was then set for NAGASAKI with slight deviations to check shipping, arriving over NAGASAKI at 1025.
 I proceeded to ISAHAY to OMUTA thence to YANAGAWA to KURUME to NAKATSU. Time over NAKATSU was 1100.
 My course was then over NAGASU to TOMIKUDURA to YA SHIMA Island to NAGAHAMA at 1122.  Approximate air mileage to this point was 600 miles. Flight Officer HALL, number two (2) in the second flight, called for a reduction in rpm because he was low on gas.  His radio transmission was very poor and all messages from him were relayed through his flight commander, Captain KOPECKY. I asked Flight Officer HALL how many gallons of gas he had left and answer was approximately 240 gallons.  At that time we were 540 miles from base and I reduced power settings to 1600 rpm and 28"Hg.  Low visibility forced me around the peninsula to SHONE and down to SAEKI.  I then called Flight Officer HALL again on his gas supply and understood him to say that he had about 140 gallons.  I decided that his rate of fuel consumption and gas supply would not permit his return to a friendly base and turned out to sea off FURUE to jettison bombs at 1143.

        No flak had been encountered over Japanese installations and I believed that a landing at a suitable Japanese airdrome would be preferable to the certain loss of a plane and the possible loss of a pilot in the event a forced ditching at sea was made.

        I called Jukebox 36 (B-17 of the 6th Air Sea Rescue Suadron) and informed him of my intentions and requested assistance.  I landed at NITTAGAHARA, 450 miles from base, at 1205.  There were no Japanese in sight after landing and I checked the gas supply in flight Officer HALL's plane.  He had dropped his external tank previous to informing me of his difficulty and upon inspection, I found that his wing tanks were dry and I estimated his fuel at 150 gallons in mains and reserves by visual check of fuel indicators and tanks.

        At 1305 we were contacted by officers and men of the Japanese Army and although conversation was difficult, we were greeted in a friendly manner. Jukebox 36 landed at approximately 1315 and with a fuel pump and hose furnished by the Japanese, we transferred approximately 260 gallons of gas from the B-17 to the P-38.  After landing at NITTAGAHARA, I dropped my external tank on the runway still containing 25 to 50 gallons.  I had used but 15 minutes of my internal gas supply by that time.

        Flight Officer HALL and I were airborne behind the B-17 at 1445 and set course for base where we landed at 1645 after cruising at 1800 rpm and 28"Hf.  I had approximately 240 gallons of gas left after landing.  All cruise settings were in auto lean.  Flight Officer HALL had approximately 210 gallons remaining.

        As far as it is possible to ascertain from interrogation of line personnel concerned, Flight Officer HALL's plane was serviced with 300 gallons in the external tank and all internal tanks topped off.  From preliminary investigation, it is believed that the cross feed valve was defective thus permitting siphoning of the fuel supply.

        I carried out my landing on Japanese territory in the belief that Flight Officer HALL could not safely return to the nearest Allied base and that under the circumstances it would be the safest course of action if I landed prior to Flight Officer HALL because I thought that in the case of difficulty with Japanese, my rank and experience would be of benefit.  Flight Officer HALL's lack of combat experience and the nervousness that he showed after landing and when confronted by the Japanese confirmed my belief.

        Instructions in all details of the fuel system and gas consumption characteristics of the P-38 are now being given and will be followed by actual demonstrations and written examinations by all pilots of this organization. All efforts will be made to prevent any possible reoccurrence of this situation either by pilot error or mechanical failure.

                                                /s/   Clay Tice, Jr.
                                                        CLAY TICE, JR.
                                                        Lt. Colonel, Air Corps


 If confirming references are required:   "General Kenney Reports" by Geoge C. Kenney
                                   Duell, Sloan And Pearce, New York
                                    Pgs 573 & 574

                                    "Flying Buccaneers - The Illustrated Story of Kenney's                                                 Fifth Air Force" by Steve Birdsall
                                       Doubleday & Company, Inc., Garden City, New York
                                       Pgs 289 & 290


 Note:  I  still have one of the officer's sword in my hall closet.

 This is the official record -- all of the details are missing.

 Clay

------------------------------------------------------------------

"On 21 Aug 45, 4-days before my landing at Nittagahara, I escorted the all white Betty
bomber "Bataan" from Okinawa back to Kyushu. The "Bataan" had carried the Japanese envoys to a meeting with MacArthurs's staff in Manila and there had agreed to the surrender ceremonies in Tokyo Bay at a set date. The Cease Fire was holding at that time with no military action by either side. The Cease Fire and the agreement to
surrender came after the bombing and as a result of that bombing. My landing (on
Nittagahara, Ed.) was in that "lull" between the initial cease fire and the surrender. In
effect the Japanese military forces had 'surrendered' or a least stopped fighting when
the Cease Fire was agreed to except for those few holdout units scattered about Japan.
For the Japanese the war ended with the Cease Fire -- the surrender ceremony was
just that -- it was an event (Nittagahara, Ed.) ONLY because I was the first to set foot on
Japanese soil after the SHOOTING STOPPED." (related next)

"Before landing at Nittagahara I had no way of knowing what the Japanese reaction
would be. After landing, first by myself, I kept the fans turning with rest of the group
circling overhead to take out any action that the Japanese initiated against me. When
everything appeared peaceful, I called in Hall and then we both kept the fans turning for
a few minutes before shutting down. The landing was a calculated risk because it was
either that or taking a big chance that Hall could bail out successfully halfway between  
and Oki and have the B-17 Dumbo drop a boat that he could get to. There were no subs
on rescue patrol that day and landing seemed the best thing to do to save Hall's life."