Author Topic: Political explosion in t-5,4,3,2....  (Read 8436 times)

Offline Nash

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Political explosion in t-5,4,3,2....
« Reply #150 on: July 13, 2005, 09:57:48 PM »
Lets not forget....

The reason why this is even happening is because everyone was lied to about going to war. Bald-faced lied to.

Everyone was lied to.

That's why we're talking about this. It's what brings us to Plame. This wasn't some random leak.

A rationale for war was being built.... and it was being built on false premises. On lies. One of them being that Saddam was seeking yellowcake from Niger. Totally false. When that was pointed out, all the Bush admin could do was to discredit him by damaging the man's wife. What complete weasels.

They love the "patriotism" line.... but that's a joke. Plame devoted her life... risked her life for the United States... and she gets tossed aside like scrap because she is married to a guy who said things that were ultimately true.

This is worse than Watergate.

This is coming back like a boomerang.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2005, 10:00:55 PM by Nash »

Offline Raider179

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« Reply #151 on: July 13, 2005, 10:02:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
just to throw 2 more cents in:

here is something that democrats cant prove.


1) intention
Knowledge that the US was making efforts to conceal Valerie Plame's intelligence identity:

There is a need to produce evidence that Karl Rove "intentionally discloses any information identifying such covert agent to any individual not authorized to receive classified information, knowing that the information disclosed so identifies such covert agent and that the United States is taking affirmative measures to conceal such covert agent’s intelligence relationship to the United States" per § 421.

2) US efforts to conceal Valerie Plame's intelligence identity:

There is a need to produce evidence that "the United States is taking affirmative measures to conceal such covert agent’s intelligence relationship to the United States" per § 421. Press reports indicate Ms. Plame had a notional identity as a private businesswoman, created as a cover by the CIA, which would appear to meet the "affirmative measures" test.

3) that Valerie Plame was actually a covert agent:

There is a need to produce evidence that Valerie Plame qualifies as a "covert agent" per § 426. In particular, no evidence has been published to date that she served outside the US (which is a requirement). A single official trip overseas might suffice, however.

Raider until you can prove all that keep frothing.  I've said it before if one of these guys is guilty then let them go down for it.  If not they are innocent until proven otherwise.  To me it doesnt matter what your political agenda is.

just to keep you from searching here is the answer to one of my questions earlier
 Intelligence Identities Protection Act, (50 USC 421-426)


1)Just because he seems to have found a loophole you think he should be let off? Give me a break. You Conservatives wanted to hang Clinton on the definition of what constitutes sex now you want to let KR off because he said "wilson's wife" instead of Valerie Plume. Double standard?

Yeah I am sure when Her husband released his statement contradicting Bush on the yellow cake, KR "accidentaly" told Matt Cooper she worked for the CIA. Everyone here including myself has said KR is smart. Way to smart to not have known she was an agent. That alone calls for a resignation on his part.


2)Semantics brother. It might be tough to prove since words like "knowingly and intentionally" are used in the law and since those are only things KR would know. Ignorance is no excuse in my book.

3)LMAO now she wasnt even undercover huh? Have you read the actual passage by novak?

Wilson never worked for the CIA, but his wife, Valerie Plame, is an Agency operative on weapons of mass destruction. Two senior administration officials told me Wilson's wife suggested sending him to Niger to investigate. The CIA says its counter-proliferation officials selected Wilson and asked his wife to contact him. "I will not answer any question about my wife," Wilson told me.

WoW sounds a lot like what KR told Cooper doesnt it?

4)If nothing else KR lied about it and that is now clear and in the public eye.

"Luskin told NEWSWEEK that Rove "never knowingly disclosed classified information" and that "he did not tell any reporter that Valerie Plame worked for the CIA." Luskin declined, however, to discuss any other details"

So you want to deny KR told Matt Cooper she worked for the CIA?

"Cooper wrote that Rove offered him a "big warning" not to "get too far out on Wilson." Rove told Cooper that Wilson's trip had not been authorized by "DCIA"—CIA Director George Tenet—or Vice President Dick Cheney. Rather, "it was, KR said, wilson's wife, who apparently works at the agency on wmd [weapons of mass destruction] issues who authorized the trip."


5)You want proof like this is a court of law and I laugh. It is only what I think and I think I have shown substantial reason to hold to that belief. You on the other hand have offered nothing except how KR could have circumvented the law by being a "slick willy".

6)Ever hear of morals? Sometimes there are things in life that a law doesnt or can't cover. Resign its that simple.

7) hard to save time for someone who already knows what the law says.

Now again why have no conservatives offered anything up about the KR Novak connection from 1992 when he got fired for "leaking info to Novak?

Yeah see because it shows a past history of doing the same thing.

or how about how he called her "fair game" to Harball's Matthews?

Got anything to say on that or what?

Offline Raider179

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« Reply #152 on: July 13, 2005, 10:05:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
wrong and wrong.


First

I didn't say the CIA did not know wether she was undercover I said the US Govt has yet to release wether or not she worked as a "covert Agent"

Second

That is what grand jury investigations are all about.  To determin if a crime did in fact take place and wether or not to hand out indictments.  Last time I checked Karl Rove has not been indicted by a grand jury for any crime.

Nash I'm quoting the exact law.   THAT is what has to be PROVEN in order for a CRIME to have taken place.  

Has it been proven yet???

The evidence released to the public thus far does not prove he commited any crime under the Intelligence Identities Protection Act, (50 USC 421-426)

again you guys are jumping the gun here.


Simple question...

Have people ever resigned for "questionable actions" ever or did it always take a conviction?

What you call "jumping the gun" I call keeping my head up and paying attention. You seem to think this is a court of law for some reason.

Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #153 on: July 13, 2005, 10:05:53 PM »
Quote
intentionally discloses any information identifying such covert agent to any individual not authorized to receive classified information, knowing that the information disclosed so identifies such covert agent and that the United States is taking affirmative measures to conceal such covert agent’s intelligence relationship to the United States" per § 421.


If Rove did not know her "employment" at the CIA was classified he broke no law.  That is the meat and potatos of the issue.  

He did not out her as an operative he didn't even mention her by name (wich I KNOW is not excusable becaues her name wasnt mentioned) he simply stated she "worked" for the CIA.

now this is both according to Novak and Rove so who knows.  So far I don't see any violation of any law.  AGAIN that's not to say he might have violated one.  All this fuss is political mouth foaming.

Edit:  Nash by your statement recuarding the investigation.  This has been under investigation for 2+ years, Rove has testified "2 or 3 times", and he's yet to be indicted.  Who's to say he did anything wrong?

Offline Raider179

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« Reply #154 on: July 13, 2005, 10:08:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nash
Geeze.... Someone sells a CIA agent (patriot!) down the river and all you have to say about it is this?

 


Yep Nash, not only do they sell her and her husband down the river and everyone they ever worked with they then turn on anyone who defends them. I have begun to see the conservatives as a bunch of bullies who name call because the democratic party is too weak to stand up for its own properly. Really sad state of affairs.

Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #155 on: July 13, 2005, 10:09:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Raider179
Simple question...

Have people ever resigned for "questionable actions" ever or did it always take a conviction?

What you call "jumping the gun" I call keeping my head up and paying attention. You seem to think this is a court of law for some reason.


it's simple.  When the "wind of scandel" picks up ever so slightly you democrats act like dog's in heat and froth at the mouth uncontrolably crying foul before any real fact or reason has been established.

you guys have ended up with Egg on your face more times than I can remember.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2005, 10:11:54 PM by Gunslinger »

Offline Raider179

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« Reply #156 on: July 13, 2005, 10:12:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nash


A rationale for war was being built.... and it was being built on false premises. On lies. One of them being that Saddam was seeking yellowcake from Niger. Totally false. When that was pointed out, all the Bush admin could do was to discredit him by damaging the man's wife. What complete weasels.

 


cough cough anyone say Downing memo? Well said and true.

Offline Raider179

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« Reply #157 on: July 13, 2005, 10:14:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
If Rove did not know her "employment" at the CIA was classified he broke no law.  That is the meat and potatos of the issue.  

He did not out her as an operative he didn't even mention her by name (wich I KNOW is not excusable becaues her name wasnt mentioned) he simply stated she "worked" for the CIA.

now this is both according to Novak and Rove so who knows.  So far I don't see any violation of any law.  AGAIN that's not to say he might have violated one.  All this fuss is political mouth foaming.

Edit:  Nash by your statement recuarding the investigation.  This has been under investigation for 2+ years, Rove has testified "2 or 3 times", and he's yet to be indicted.  Who's to say he did anything wrong?


Oh come on.... He didnt "know"? That is the biggest bunch of bs yet. I would think someone in his position would be careful about talking about someone who works for the CIA. (To a reporter no less) but I guess Karl is dumber than we think huh?

Offline Raider179

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« Reply #158 on: July 13, 2005, 10:16:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
it's simple.  When the "wind of scandel" picks up ever so slightly you democrats act like dog's in heat and froth at the mouth uncontrolably crying foul before any real fact or reason has been established.

you guys have ended up with Egg on your face more times than I can remember.


Sorry Guns. No democrat here. I hate both parties equally. But you know what I hate worse? A traitor and that is what this is coming down to.

KR knowing or unknowingly released that info.
Is that up for debate?

Either way I see a resignation coming.

Offline Raider179

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« Reply #159 on: July 13, 2005, 10:20:27 PM »
Again I see no defense for KR hardball admission that Valerie Plume was "fair game"

or anything about his leaking to Novak in 1992 and being fired from Bush Sr.'s campaign. No response? or just choose to ignore?

Offline Raider179

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« Reply #160 on: July 13, 2005, 10:25:11 PM »
My last thoughts before I go cook steaks.

1)Please dont lock this thread it has been very open and is one of the best debates the O'club has had in awhile. Much respect to both sides of the debate.

2)KR is in a position to know if she was an agent. If he didnt know she was an operative then he didnt do his job and deserves to be fired or resign.

3)Ever wonder if this might effect future covert ops? High level administration officials loosing names of CIA agents makes me sick.

4)The defense seems to be whether he "knowingly or intentionally" did it. Ok lets say he did it not knowing. Do you think he should resign?

Offline DrDea

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« Reply #161 on: July 13, 2005, 10:35:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Raider179
My last thoughts before I go cook steaks.

1)Please dont lock this thread it has been very open and is one of the best debates the O'club has had in awhile. Much respect to both sides of the debate.

Amen to that

2)KR is in a position to know if she was an agent. If he didnt know she was an operative then he didnt do his job and deserves to be fired or resign.

He said the guys wife worked for the CIA..Do you seriously expect KR to know all the CIA opps???? Seriously????
   Saying someone works for the CIA,and remember,the reporter who KR talked to isnt the one that dug out the info and printed it.Key point there.

3)Ever wonder if this might effect future covert ops? High level administration officials loosing names of CIA agents makes me sick.

Members of Congress have been leaking stuff ever since time began.

4)The defense seems to be whether he "knowingly or intentionally" did it. Ok lets say he did it not knowing. Do you think he should resign?

  Im waiting to hear the whole story on that one.
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Offline Raider179

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« Reply #162 on: July 13, 2005, 10:46:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DrDea
Amen to that

2)KR is in a position to know if she was an agent. If he didnt know she was an operative then he didnt do his job and deserves to be fired or resign.

He said the guys wife worked for the CIA..Do you seriously expect KR to know all the CIA opps???? Seriously????
   Saying someone works for the CIA,and remember,the reporter who KR talked to isnt the one that dug out the info and printed it.Key point there.

3)Ever wonder if this might effect future covert ops? High level administration officials loosing names of CIA agents makes me sick.

Members of Congress have been leaking stuff ever since time began.

4)The defense seems to be whether he "knowingly or intentionally" did it. Ok lets say he did it not knowing. Do you think he should resign?

  Im waiting to hear the whole story on that one.


1)Yes, when a high level official is leaking to the press, he better check his facts and I really don't believe he didnt know. He might have just gave a push instead of getting on the sled himself. (no difference in my book.

2)Name one

3)come on, its a hypothetical situation. Answer....

Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #163 on: July 13, 2005, 10:51:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Raider179
.
KR knowing or unknowingly released that info.
Is that up for debate?
 


Nope I don't think so.

Quote
Originally posted by Raider179
.
KR is in a position to know if she was an agent. If he didnt know she was an operative then he didnt do his job and deserves to be fired or resign.


I think this IS debatable.  He may or may not have known but from what it sounds like in transcripts between him and Novak it does not sound like he was trying to out her cover and ruin her career.

Quote
Again I see no defense for KR hardball admission that Valerie Plume was "fair game"

or anything about his leaking to Novak in 1992 and being fired from Bush Sr.'s campaign. No response? or just choose to ignore?

It's 2005 not 1992.  I havnt seen anything were he says she was "fair game" that's not to say he didn't say it.

Raider he didn't call her an agent he just said that she worked for them.  According to Novak this was a 2 min conversation that happened in passing.  If I was trying to destroy somone I'd make a little bit more effort than that.

Again it does not sound like she was the topic of conversation or that he INTENDED to out her as an agent or operative.  

Now if we want to talk about "yellow cake" and wilson's mission to africa this is my opinion:

Quote
In February 2002, Ambassador Joseph Wilson traveled to Niger, Africa to investigate whether or not that country had sold uranium to Saddam Hussein.  In January 2003, President Bush stated that the British government believed Saddam had sought to buy uranium from Africa. Note the word sought. It is very important.

In July 2003, a few months later, Wilson the ambassador wrote an op-ed piece in the New York Times, saying he could not verify Saddam had bought uranium from Niger. Note the word bought.


I think Nash summed up Downing Street memo perfectly:
Quote
Originally posted by Nash
It's fake but accurate!

er wait a minute, it's accurate but FAKE!

Uhm... It's no less fake than it is less accurate!

It is no more less accurate than it is no more less fake! But, accurate, but fake.

Uhm.... dang.

Offline Nash

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« Reply #164 on: July 13, 2005, 11:52:33 PM »
Except that it wasn't fake and it was accurate.

Apologist. Wake up. Yer getting raped.