P47N Perk Debate

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

I gotta ask, who in their right mind turn fights in a 190 any way? A 109, maybe, but not a 190.

[Wilbus]

I do Savage, I am not in my right mind though.

Thanks for doing the test Widewing and proving what I said.

What I said I based upon flying the 190 almost exlusivly in the AH MA for months and months, I know how the plane behaves. I also know how pretty much every other plane in AH behaves as I've had time to go through them all and once again, the 190 A8 stands no chance against any US fighter in a turn fight.

What Widewing said, P47 and P51 can deploy first notch of flaps at 400mph making them increadibly good turners. And as the speed drops they can deploy further. P38 first notch 250mph and 190's first notch at 170mph (or so, within the vicinty of 170 atleast).

Brooke, I respect your tests but I have to say I don't trust them. If a Jug and Pony gets outturned by a 190 A8 they are just too inexperienced to know how to turn anywhere near the edge of the planes performance.

P38L rolls better at 350mph and above untill it locks up.

[Waffle]

A lot depends on the pilots familiarity with the aircraft. I believe stick forces are modeled in this game (correct me if I’m wrong).  Anyway, I can’t remember the term for it (muscle memory?), but muscles get trained to remember certain repetitive motions, such as flying a certain type of plane. Basiclly developing your “feel” for the aircraft. So if you’re flying a p51 all the time – your muscles get accustomed to flying the 51, then if you switch to another plane, your muscles are doing what feels “right” for the predominant plane (p51), but that may not be “right” for the  current plane you are in.  Anyway, just a thought, if the planes interpret stick data differently.

One thing to do would be to get several pilots in the DA or TA and do a test. You might find that some players can outturn you in a plane that you think should never be able to outturn the plane you’re in. A lot depends on pilot skill  - and so far in the MA, I have rarely seen 2 planes get into a sustained turn on a single axis. So turn rates are great for debate and such, but for practical use it’s almost a moot point. It’s all in how the pilot is familiar with his craft and knows it’s advantages / weakness as compared to the opponents aircraft, and how to use those against the opponent.

[Brooke]

Originally posted by Widewing
Careful? Too careful, I think.

50% fuel, full ammo, max power (WEP) . . .

It's good that you did the test, but I was using full power, not war-emergency power.  Under my stated conditions, I'd be interested to know what numbers you get.  I did a test with WEP turned on.  What I get is below.  Are you sure you are getting to steady state before starting the timing of your three turns?  In other words, are you doing 5 or more stall turns before you start timing your 3?  If so, can you send me a film of one of your runs? -- I'd be very curious why you and I, supposedly doing the same test, are getting different numbers (brooke at electraforge.com).  My numbers below are repeatable to within a second or two, and I am flying to edge of the snap-spin/stall.

FW 190A-8, 64 sec
P-47D-25, 67 sec
P-47D-25 (1notch), 65 sec

Originally posted by Widewing
Both the P-47 and P-51 can deploy one notch of flaps at 400 mph, meaning that the Fws will find themselves even further behind the 8-ball.

Beyond the speed at which you are pulling max g's (which limits the g's you can pull to a constant), turn rate is just a function of airspeed -- nothing else.  Dropping a notch of flaps there is just acting like air brakes, scrubbing off speed.  You can dump energy and tighten the turn until you run out of airspeed through any number of techniques:  a notch of flaps, speed brakes, chopping throttle, or possibly standing on rudder.  This is just a transient effect.

Originally posted by Widewing
By the way, the P-38L rolls faster than the Fw 190 above 350 mph, with the difference becoming larger as speed goes up.

I just tested the P-38L vs. the FW 190A-8 at 10k altitude at about 375-400 mph indicated, holding a shallow dive to hold the speed in that range.  The P-38L does 3 rolls in 10.5 seconds.  The FW 190A-8 does 3 rolls in 10.5 seconds.  Above about 400 mph at 10k and higher, the P-38L starts to hit compressibility.  Much inside compressibility, it's roll rate goes to crap.  The FW 190A-8 hits compressiblity there at about 500 mph indicated.  So, in roll rate, the P-38L gets trounced by the FW 190A-8 all the way up to moderate speeds, the P-38L draws to parity (but not superiority) at a narrow range of high speeds, then gets trounced again above that range.  So, I'd still say the FW 190A-8 is much better at roll.

Originally posted by Widewing

Wilbus is correct, the 190A-8 will not out-turn any P-47 (especially the D-11) even without the P-47 using flaps. However, using flaps in the Jug allows it to gain a significant edge.

I disagree that the P-47D has a significant advantage over the FW 190A-8 in stall-turn performance.  I believe that the FW 190A-8 is in fact better (although not by a huge amount).  I'd be willing to go on-line in the dueling area together to check it out.

Getting back to what points I am trying to make:

1.  The US planes are not uniformly better at maneuvering than the German ones.
2.  The P-47D is not a great-turning plane and does not handily outturn a FW 190.
3.  I doubt HTC biases the modelling in favor of US planes.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Brooke
I just tested the P-38L vs. the FW 190A-8 at 10k altitude at about 375-400 mph indicated, holding a shallow dive to hold the speed in that range.  The P-38L does 3 rolls in 10.5 seconds.  The FW 190A-8 does 3 rolls in 10.5 seconds.  Above about 400 mph at 10k and higher, the P-38L starts to hit compressibility.  Much inside compressibility, it's roll rate goes to crap.  The FW 190A-8 hits compressiblity there at about 500 mph indicated.  So, in roll rate, the P-38L gets trounced by the FW 190A-8 all the way up to moderate speeds, the P-38L draws to parity (but not superiority) at a narrow range of high speeds, then gets trounced again above that range.  So, I'd still say the FW 190A-8 is much better at roll.

We have guests visiting us this week from France. Today we're off to NYC for the day. Later this evening I will answer your reply in full and post films.

In the meantime, here's a chart showing the roll rate comparison between a 190 and P-38s, with both boosted and non-boosted ailerons. Data is from NACA, USAAF and Lockheed.



My regards,

Widewing

[Urchin]

Well, as someone who "flew" the 190 as HT modelled it for 3+ years, I'll tell you that Wilbus is correct.  The 190A8 doesn't even come very close to out-turning the P-47.  You can just about hang with one until the speed drops down below 200 mph, but after that the A8 just isn't going to stay with one.  

You can knife-fight in a 190, I did it for years with some success.  It isn't a 100-mph flapfest like a good spit 5 fight, mainly you try to get into a good position fast then kill your opponent.  If you fail to gain a good position quickly, you have to disengage and set up another merge.  I would typically run until I got about 1000 yards seperation, then turn gently back into my opponent to set up a rolling scissors.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by Urchin
Well, as someone who "flew" the 190 as HT modelled it for 3+ years, I'll tell you that Wilbus is correct.  The 190A8 doesn't even come very close to out-turning the P-47.  You can just about hang with one until the speed drops down below 200 mph, but after that the A8 just isn't going to stay with one.  

You can knife-fight in a 190, I did it for years with some success.  It isn't a 100-mph flapfest like a good spit 5 fight, mainly you try to get into a good position fast then kill your opponent.  If you fail to gain a good position quickly, you have to disengage and set up another merge.  I would typically run until I got about 1000 yards seperation, then turn gently back into my opponent to set up a rolling scissors.

I thought that was what you were supposed to do with a 190. Seems to me that is flying the plane to its strengths.

[pellik]

A major strength of the P47D is low speed stability. Low speed stability is also one of the 190's weaknesses. Since both planes are going to be turning as hard as they can, and both planes burn E like mad when turning, low speeds will be achieved fast. The P47 can tear up a 190 below 200mph as the p47 has some reasonably powerful flaps.

That is not to say the 190 is without options. It's roll rate is still respectable, and in a defensive flat scissors it can evade for a long time, usually long enough to call for help if the 190 pilot is competent. But because the jug flys so much slower getting a successful overshoot from a low speed scissors can be impossible.

You can't judge a plane's performance in a turnfight just by how fast it does a sustained flat turn. Success is more to do with the match up between ALL advantages and disadvantages and whether the pilot can control the fight toward his advantages.

[bozon]

last time I checked P47D had lower empty wingloading than 190A8. Add to that the high AoA stability from elliptical wings and from being a fat pig and no wonder it handle better at near stall speeds, even without flaps.
No suprise there.

190s have better powerloading, which will help maintaining corner velocity, but not much good for crawling at 200 mph.

Bozon

[Ack-Ack]

Damnit, were is Twist when you need him?

Would be great to get him out of retirement and have him update his Twist files for AH.  


ack-ack

[Brooke]

Widewing, your graph is not how the planes perform in Aces High, which is what we're talking about.  If you test the planes at 10k in Aces High, I think you will find that the P-38L and FW 190A-8 are about the same in roll at high speed until the P-38L hits compressibility, at which point the FW is much better again.

[Brooke]

So, who wants to go up with me in the dueling area and test FW 190A-8 stall turns vs. a P-47D-25?

In my testing, the FW has a higher turn rate than the P-47, but not by much.  For me, my testing is very repeatable, but it is at odds with Widewing's testing.  I'd be very interested to find out whether or not my testing is correct as I think it is.

Keep in mind I am not arguing that stall-turn performance is the most important thing in dogfighting.  In fact, my argument was the opposite.  All of this is stemming from the attitude that US fighters unfairly outclass all German fighters in maneuvering and that the P-47 turns well at low speed.   My points were:

1.  Roll counts as part of maneuvering, and the FW is great there.
2.  The P-47 has poor turn rate at low speed.  Most of the Bf 109's handily beat it there, but even the FW's are a little better in turn rate according to my testing.
3.  I doubt HTC fudges the flight modelling to favor US planes.

[Urchin]

Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
I thought that was what you were supposed to do with a 190. Seems to me that is flying the plane to its strengths.

Most people won't even do that... for about 95% of people, the 190 is strictly a one pass, haul bellybutton airplane.

[Wind]

Originally posted by Urchin
Well, as someone who "flew" the 190 as HT modelled it for 3+ years,

Oops.  First wrong answer.

[1K3]

Originally posted by Brooke
So, who wants to go up with me in the dueling area and test FW 190A-8 stall turns vs. a P-47D-25?

In my testing, the FW has a higher turn rate than the P-47, but not by much.  For me, my testing is very repeatable, but it is at odds with Widewing's testing.  I'd be very interested to find out whether or not my testing is correct as I think it is.

Keep in mind I am not arguing that stall-turn performance is the most important thing in dogfighting.  In fact, my argument was the opposite.  All of this is stemming from the attitude that US fighters unfairly outclass all German fighters in maneuvering and that the P-47 turns well at low speed.   My points were:

1.  Roll counts as part of maneuvering, and the FW is great there.
2.  The P-47 has poor turn rate at low speed.  Most of the Bf 109's handily beat it there, but even the FW's are a little better in turn rate according to my testing.
3.  I doubt HTC fudges the flight modelling to favor US planes.

Also, tryload 190A-8 and P-47D-25 with the heaviest gun armament and lite gun armament.