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Author Topic: Asian Man Shot Dead on London Tube  (Read 4370 times)

Offline Chairboy

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Asian Man Shot Dead on London Tube
« Reply #90 on: July 23, 2005, 07:41:30 PM »
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
they probably saved a bunch of people in the train. <>
Karaya
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Originally posted by Nashwan
Oh, how despicable, shooting terrorists who are trying to murder people.
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Originally posted by ASTAC
his was handled exactly the way it should have been.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Good Start!
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Originally posted by Eagler
by the end of the week, some loser will be crying how the cops over reacted

wtg Brits! pop a couple more asap ... hope you can keep it up

An update:
British police admit shooting wrong man in bomb hunt
http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2005-07-23T190522Z_01_SCH145033_RTRUKOC_0_SECURITY-BRITAIN.xml
LONDON (Reuters) - Police admitted on Saturday they had shot dead the wrong man in a tragic error as they combed London for four men after attempted bomb attacks on the capital's transport system.
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Offline GRUNHERZ

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Asian Man Shot Dead on London Tube
« Reply #91 on: July 23, 2005, 07:46:16 PM »
Chairboy,

You have a new job in London!

"Decider of who to shoot or not to shoot after they challenge police and make a mad dash at a subway car while waering a heavy jacket in summer, in a city that was just attacked 8 times in two weeks by suicide bombers on subways and busses"

You will do a great job with this position! You will be a natural!
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Offline Eagler

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if you are gonna error...
« Reply #92 on: July 23, 2005, 07:48:24 PM »
ya best do it on the side of caution..

betcha the next guy the cops tell to stop will if he ain't a nutbag bomber
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Offline Chairboy

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Asian Man Shot Dead on London Tube
« Reply #93 on: July 23, 2005, 07:51:45 PM »
In their position, I might have done the same thing.  You misunderstand, my beef is not with the bobbies that made that difficult decision.  I think they used the information they had, and they truly believed they were saving lives.

What got me was the tone 'yee-haw!' mentality of the responses to the news of the shooting.  Without any information, everyone starts popping champagne corks.

I guess it's sad.
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Offline Toad

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Asian Man Shot Dead on London Tube
« Reply #94 on: July 23, 2005, 08:45:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
Toad, with respect, I'm not going to be your monkey.  I've answered the points in the above and other posts in this thread.


Chairboy, with respect, I don't want you to be my anything.

With respect, I don't see where you've answered the points, either.

You complain that Mayfield was incorrectly held as a "material witness". The material witness law significantly pre-dates 9/11 and the PA, dating back to the eighteenth century.

The FBI had a computer match to Mayfield on one of the bags in the Madrid bombing. Mayfield was released as soon as Spanish authorities said the fingerprints found on the plastic bag belonged to an Algerian identified as Ouhnane Daoud.

Your point was:

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The Patriot act replaces the presumption of innocence until proven guilty with something more sinister. The police can, at their discretion, 'short-circuit' many of the checks and balances that the founding fathers and two centuries of judicial oversight have instituted into our justice system.


Where in the arrest of Mayfield did the this stuff happen due to the PA? (Arrest as a "material witness" dates prior to the PA.)

What would you have preferred, that they ignore the one fingerprint and if he WAS in on the plot take the chance of him escaping? Or hold him until they could indict or clear him for sure?

You haven't addressed any of those questions as far as I can see.

Similarly, with respect, you have posted the "PA/homeless/train station" example but haven't explained how moving them out of the train station differs in the least from allowing only ticketed passengers inside the security perimeter at an airport.

Should we have similar security perimeters at our train stations? It's clear the terrorists consider trains/subways an excellent venue for their operations.

If we do have such security perimeters, doesn't it make sense to allow only ticketed passengers inside the perimeter?

I'm sorry, but I don't see where you've addressed either of these issues.

You have complained about these two situations as abuses of our freedom under the PA but don't seem to be able to explain why you think that might be so.
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Offline Maverick

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Asian Man Shot Dead on London Tube
« Reply #95 on: July 23, 2005, 09:28:20 PM »
Toad,

Your questions really belong in another thread regarding the patriot Act. It shouldn't have been brought up here as the Brits don't HAVE the Patriot Act. I know you didn't bring it up but another thread titled to that would be more appropriate.
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Offline Toad

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Asian Man Shot Dead on London Tube
« Reply #96 on: July 23, 2005, 11:31:17 PM »
Mav,

You have a valid point but I think we all realize threads wander.

My questions arose in response to this post on Page 1 of this thread.

These references to the Patriot Act and the "references" given are what generated my questions.

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Originally posted by Chairboy
I think the tone in some of the responses to my message have been a bit puzzling.  The rights we have as citizens are not just limited to stuff we can do when everything is going fine, the purpose of our civil liberties is to protect us when things go terribly wrong.

If you are arrested, the rights we have are designed to serve as a safety governor to protect you from lynching, mob rage, etc.

The Patriot act replaces the presumption of innocence until proven guilty with something more sinister.  The police can, at their discretion, 'short-circuit' many of the checks and balances that the founding fathers and two centuries of judicial oversight have instituted into our justice system.  "But chairboy, this means that criminals can be punished faster!"  It also means that the innocent can be punished before they can show proof that will exonerate them.  Trading justice for efficiency is a losing proposition.

I believe that 95% of the Patriot act uses have been/will be legitimate.  I think the professionalism and belief in liberty that suffuse our law enforcement is above reproach, and I admire their selfless attention to duty.  The problem is with the last 5%.  There will be cases where any system is abused.  The Patriot act specifically has been invoked against the homeless, for example.  Were they terrorists?  No.  Were they accused of being terrorists?  No.  Did the Patriot act give some city officials the power to do what the constitution prohibited for their own gain?  Yes, and that's what happened.  This is just one of many apparent abuses that concern me.

Some References:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/06/30/patriot.act.homeless.ap/
http://www.eastoregonian.info/Main.asp?SectionID=13&SubSectionID=206&ArticleID=41543
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Offline GRUNHERZ

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Asian Man Shot Dead on London Tube
« Reply #97 on: July 24, 2005, 01:19:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
In their position, I might have done the same thing.  You misunderstand, my beef is not with the bobbies that made that difficult decision.  I think they used the information they had, and they truly believed they were saving lives.

What got me was the tone 'yee-haw!' mentality of the responses to the news of the shooting.  Without any information, everyone starts popping champagne corks.

I guess it's sad.


Yes it is very sad than an innocent man lost his life.  

Still, in that particular situation it was the right course of action and it gave some confidence to see that the London police were cleared to act quickly and decesively - even so far as to shoot a man 5 times while he was allready tackled.
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Offline RTSigma

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Asian Man Shot Dead on London Tube
« Reply #98 on: July 24, 2005, 02:08:38 AM »
Just imagine if the man they tracked down and shot WAS a terrorist. Imagine if in his jacket there was a bomb and he was planning to set it off.

Yes his death is tragic but he was warned to stop after emerging from a building under surveilance. If cops tell you stop, you're not going to run and rush into a train station after the attacks that went on.

If I was flying a plane towards a building and was warned to change paths and ignored the radio and there were jet fighters in the area, what do you think would happen?
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Offline Gh0stFT

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Asian Man Shot Dead on London Tube
« Reply #99 on: July 24, 2005, 04:22:58 AM »
The Cops did there Job. In this dangerous times errors happen.
I'm ok with it, as long its not me who got shot death because of an mistake. Looks like we have to live with this possible danger
too now.
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Offline megadud

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Asian Man Shot Dead on London Tube
« Reply #100 on: July 24, 2005, 06:08:08 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gh0stFT
The Cops did there Job. In this dangerous times errors happen.
I'm ok with it, as long its not me who got shot death because of an mistake. Looks like we have to live with this possible danger
too now.


LOL that's what the moron gets for running from thepolice..he did run right? Anyway even if he didn't i would shoot anyone that looks at me funny. better an innocent man die then me getting blown up. don't mess with the po po word!
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Offline JimBear

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Asian Man Shot Dead on London Tube
« Reply #101 on: July 24, 2005, 08:41:27 AM »
Its good to see, the "screw him" it aint me, he must have been an idiot crowd are out in force.  All you people who accept and condone the murder of a human by the security polize get what you deserve. maybe not you, but your brother, son or father could be the next  ubb object lesson.

out of this place for good. God help the human race if you people are a representative sample
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Offline lazs2

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Asian Man Shot Dead on London Tube
« Reply #102 on: July 24, 2005, 09:07:58 AM »
so... what heinous acts have been committed because of the patriot act?  I still haven't seen any that get me very shook up.

and... why in the world did the guy who got shot run away from the police?   In the U.S tho.... people run from armed police all the time..  mostly they don't get shot but... once in a great while they do.

As english become better and more familiar with firearms they will have fewer of these accidents.  

lazs
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Offline Rolex

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Asian Man Shot Dead on London Tube
« Reply #103 on: July 24, 2005, 09:19:23 AM »
He was on his way to work. A job he was not legally able to have since he had overstayed his visa. That may have been the reason he ran, but we will never know.
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Offline Scherf

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Asian Man Shot Dead on London Tube
« Reply #104 on: July 24, 2005, 10:06:51 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
As english become better and more familiar with firearms they will have fewer of these accidents.


Never mind.


Keep us up to date on the Welsh though, OK?
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