Is there a soul meter...

[miko2d]

http://dailynews.netscape.com/dailynews/cnnnews.tmpl?story=cloning.reality03280747.html

 In a year or so, almost definitely within the next five years a human being will be cloned.
 Assuming that such an individual functions in more or less normal manner - moves and communicates, would it be possible to determine if he/she posesses an immortal soul? Does Church have some method to that effect? Or would they have to resort to the methodology used to determine the functioning artificial intelligence - talk to an entity and if you cannot tell that it is an artefact, assume it is intelligent. Is it the same with the soul?

 If such a creature does posess a soul or at least does not differ from a human produced by conventional means that could mean revising our perception of the role of the creator.

 It could be argued that Creator gives soul even to a manufactured human. (I say manufactored rather then cloned because assembling DNA rather then taking it directly from another human seems trivial if meticulous task - to be performed sooner or later). If that were true, does it mean that anything manufactured to certain specifications (shape, level of complexity) is entitled to a soul?

 Of course that is only speculation until we see the first one. If it is created without a sould, the Satan will most likely take posession of the unoccupied body immediately. Will he then be able to pretend that the human is normal and has a soul? Church seems to have some expertise in dealing with demonic posessions but wouldn't the absense of the "original owner" complicate the process of detection/eviction?

 If it were determined that the clone does not posess a soul and radically differs from a human, it will simplify the matters enormously for the commercial exploitation - body parts, genetically modified/selected slaves and soldiers - with appropriate temperament and intelligence genetically encoded. Considering the cost of upbringing, crash dummies and gel targets for testing the ammunition are not going away, but drug testing and other kinds of research will have a very tempting alternative. "The product not tested on animals or humans - only on artificial constructs".

 Times are going to get interesting in a short while. What are your thoughts?

 miko

[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 03-28-2001).]

[Yeager]

Dunno....

I just want to live out my meager life on this planet as well as possible then die.

Y

[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 03-28-2001).]

[Fatty]

Ask a pair of identical twins if only one, or both do, as they are the exact same situation as you describe.

[miko2d]

 Identical twins are conceived in a normal matter. There are much more facinating mysteries of life then the simple division of an embrio in two.
 Even if we took an embrio (like during IVF), split it in two and implanted them both, it would be the same - because it would be a continuation of life given originally by the  Creator by his/hers specifications. A soul would be forthcoming or inherited for such a child.

 We have long ago learned to affect and modify living creatures - effects of variations in feeding and hitting with solid objects were known long tome ago  
 The matter here is in creating life, making our own specs and implementing them.

miko

[fd ski]

you can clone a body but to the best of my knowledge you can't clone the memory - and that would affect everything: ability to walk, talk, understand, whole 9 yards.

Basically, it is a copy of you but with very low IQ.


------------------
Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF

Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998

Northolt Wing Headquarters

[J_A_B]

A big misconception with cloning is the people who think clones will be "exactly like them"; a minconception which is fueled by hollywood movies.

The truth is, a clone is basically the same thing as any other child, except produced by artificial means.  The clone grows from a zygote, to a fetus, to a baby, on to a child and grows into an adult.  

A clone won't be "exactly like you" any more than your kids are.  A clone won't magically become adult in 2 hours.  A clone is just another human, and cloning may provide relief to those couples who can't concieve naturally.

Clones will have just as much of a soul as you do.

J_A_B

[mietla]

J_A_B, you beat me to it. Exactly right.

[Sandman_SBM]

 

would it be possible to determine if he/she posesses an immortal soul?

Okay... I'll bite. How can you prove that any of us possesses a soul?

You can't. The only way you'll ever find out for certain is the day you die. The soul is a subject of faith.

------------------
cheers,
sand
screamin blue messiahs
The SBM's are hiring!

[Raubvogel]

It would be nice to just be able to grow some spare parts by themselves....cloning entire humans is a touchy subject. Unfortunately, sooner or later it will happen.

------------------
Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps

[Tac]

Jab is correct. Identical twins are clones. That it happened in the womb or in a lab is no difference.

One day science will find out how to clone a specific body part without cloning the entire individual. That will be very good indeed.

But tell me they are cloning an entire person and treating him/her as a non-entity... ooh boy, the bullets will fly.

[Maverick]

Presence or absence of a soul are only of interest to the individual and his / her god. Conjecture about this is as useful as arguing about the number of angels able to dance on the head of a pin.

We need a better troll than thins one.

Mav

[Animal]

How can you know if I or You have a "soul" and how it would be any different than a clone's, when neither philosophy nor religion can really define what life is?

I will not try to define life, or what makes us have a "soul" or not, but I believe any being who is sentient should be viewed in the same light we see one another right now; be it a clone, a completly artificially created human (or any other new sentient specie), or even a very advanced form of AI.

As long as it has a personal identity, can think for itself and can feel, its sentient. At least thats how I see it. And if its sentient, I would treat it with the same respect I treat any fellow human.

I think, therefore, I am.

[miko2d]

 

Originally posted by Maverick:
We need a better troll than thins one.

 Wet blanket...

[Tac]

ooh that was low. your secret is now out maverick  

[miko2d]

 

Originally posted by Maverick:
Presence or absence of a soul are only of interest to the individual and his / her god. Conjecture about this is as useful as arguing about the number of angels able to dance on the head of a pin.

 Seriously, you are extremely wrong about that! While from academic point of view the whole thing is BS, the practical effects on our societies may be enormous - from reemergence of a kind of a slavery to limitations on research to religious war/terrorism.

 What kind of a legal protection do inflatable sex-dolls and wild animals enjoy? Not much. What if someone starts producing "bio-consructs" for those purposes - sex and hunting?
 Will society interere? I see no grounds for that but a lot of motivation.
 A religious jew would not marry a non-jewis person. Though you can become a jew if you want to. Will a catholic marry or even socialise with what is not proven to be a person?
 Cloned organs could help many people right now or in the near future. I would be really pissed off if someone's religious believes would preclude me from a transplant and I am certanly sure that is what is going to happen!

 Do you consider such a construct a person? You have to in order to protect it. Does it have rights? It should in order to be afforded protection. Can a government produce those? Will they have civil rights? That would be convenient - government producing genetically selected citizens - smart, stable, healthy - much superior to the average constituent, very likely to succeed in life and gain influence and most likely to support it's creator cause/politics.

 I would just let the nature take it's course, because it will anyway, but most people would not agree with me.

miko

[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 03-29-2001).]