Fixing heavy bombers

[BlueJ1]

Originally posted by ChopSaw
That would eliminate our ability to man guns at low altitudes when we're already most vulnerable to fighters.  Also there is a place for low level drops from around 4K.

Limiting drop ability to the F6 position is still the best option.  It's simple, it'll work and it won't bother guys who already use the bomb sight at all.

I do a lot more damage for a lot longer by bombing "the right way" from heavies than anybody else who is doing jabo's in a heavy.

True. Good catch.

[Softail]

The other thing to keep in mine on the external view is that a single B-17 / 24 had 10 crew members.  8 had eyes in the sky and two worked navigation and radio.  

The external view is to reflect the 8 x 3 = 24 pairs of eyes looking around for the enemy.   If you wish to restrict the views...the smaller bombers with smaller crews would be more apt for this adjustment.

It was very hard to "sneak up" on a box of bombers.  About the only way it was done was to come out of the sun onto em.   So the external views on the heavies is a decent comprimise.

I just hate it when they fighters pilots learn to attack from 12 o'clock high at 3.5K above.  They are almost impossible to hit...those bastages.  Yes....you know who you are.

Softail

[Morpheus]

Fixing the gamey bs bomber model will never happen. Its what keeps the newbs who come to play AH, playing. They have to have an ez mode to fall back on because learning how to fight in a fighter is far too difficult to handle. That would mean they'd have to try, and put some time into getting good at it.  The gamey BS bomb drop model bread and butter of todays AH. As long as HT likes money, the arcade bomber model will always exist, and bombers will always roll inverted into a dive, fully loaded with bombs at 450mph drop them on hangers and fly away 100% intact.

Someone want to explain to me the physics involved in safely dropping bombs at 2-3 negative G's? Or how its even posible? Not just bombers, but any plane carrying bombs.

[mussie]

Ghosth said

Last, to encourage bombers, give them 2 or 3 LARGE targets per country.. Put all the strat objects for an area in one clump. Add a bunch of nice big factorys. Make it worth while to set up a good approach, figure salvo, delay etc and lay a path. In short, carpet bomb the area the way they actually did.

I have said the below before and I think it would add a hell of a lot to the game, perhaps HT could leave the MA as is and make changes to the Axis vs Allies Arena

From previous posts I have made

Well its not like Buff were hitting airfields all that much in WWII (correct me if I am wrong)

Would be nice to have a big city REAL BIG in each country....

Once all the Buffs got done bombing it to hell and the popualtion moral hit zero then map reset.....

1- Stops point less field milk running
2- Gives Buffs 1 main target so they would tend to fly togeather more
3- Gives you a buff alley so that fighters can do what they should be doing ie Buff hunting (Hey I love to furball to so dont say it)
4- Would give attack fighters a reason to attack Buff hangers at fields closer to the CIty ( imagine buff pilots complaining about attack pilots dropping buff hangers lol)
5- If the number of players on is low puffy and auto ack in the "City" increases to stop milk running....

Just my opinion mind you

What would make Buffing Better
- Hard calibration
- Maximum angles for drop Someone did a hell of a post on this subject

A couple of perk buffs Like
- The 4 Engine AR234 come to mind (Dont know if it flew much)
- The transport Version of the  Ar234 (Super Goon)
- The 14 50cal B25

Other Perk options like:
- Changing formations
- Adding Planes to a formation (Should be REALLY COSTLY)
- Special Bombs (minlets smoke stuff like that)

And on a final Note

Morpheus said

Fixing the gamey bs bomber model will never happen. Its what keeps the newbs who come to play AH, playing. They have to have an ez mode to fall back on because learning how to fight in a fighter is far too difficult to handle.

I know what you are saying, but as someone who loves a below treetop furball,  I also love Buffing. So its not just the noobs who fly buffs, its furballers as well (yeah I suck but it not the kill its the trill of the fight)

Unfortunately the Easy mode Buffing has made it boring. the most exciting this is getting a fully loaded lanc off a small airfield.  

Of course I hate to see a good furball or GV battle ruined by a buff unless of course it is going to serve an actual purpose like an actual base capture.

Later all

[BlueJ1]

Morph,

I do agree that bombing is far to easy. I also understand your point that dropping FHs and dive bombing in bombers is stupidity. But, I do not fly bombers because I dont have the will to put the time into learning fighters. I completly enjoy flying bombers far more then I do fighters. Not every pilot has to like fighters. Flying bombers used to be a skill, now its in easy mode.

The only reasons that I can surmise that those bomber pilots choose to hit bases is for the lack of worthy targets and those few who just like to piss poeple off and be party poopers.

[Mugzeee]

Originally posted by Ghosth

Ohh and give us back the hard calibration routine also.

Ghosth I know from the BBS that you aren't the "Punish the players type A" kinda guy. I agree with the dive bombing hvy bombers as probably the stupidest thing i have ever seen in Ah since i came here.
But the problem with the "Hard bomb site" was that of connection and lag as with anything else. We have very competent Pilots in our squad that cant get a decent result even out of todays bomb site settings. We are just now seeing large bomber missions in the MA again. To change the setting back to the other way would certainly cause Bomber formation mission to sharply decline as it did when it was first introduced. I think this would be a sad occurrence.

[mussie]

But the problem with the "Hard bomb site" was that of connection and lag

I am on dial up from Australia and can usually bomb a mouse at 10,000 ft, My ping is normally around the 400 mark....

I have to admit that lately I have had some bad drops but I think that was due to a rushed calibration (holding down the Y key and counting), If I give it a good 10-15 seconds I am normally fine.

I am going to test this out tonight when I get home.

[rod367th]

My god you guys funny, Lets fix  what some think is wrong. I want my game my way. This game is built for all to enjoy. Not just fighters, Not GV'ers and not bombers. Dale has built many SIMS over the  years. And probally most quaified to know, what is right and what is fair. Then anyone person in game.


 They HTC think hard and long before making changes. So many say this Bomber guns lazer bullets, these usally guys who come straight up 6 then whine cause they die. Gv'ers who complain that this guy or that guys tank unkillable or takes 10 shots. If you play long enough it goes both ways.


 so Lets say okay 1 bomber formation no dive bombing. But then 1 death in fighter or gv and thats it you can't fly rest of TOD since this is realistic  oh wait Most would cancel accounts. I wonder why HTC makes things seem unfair to some lol.



 




 P.S. If you can't kill bombers low  you surely not going to be able to kil high. killing bombers is easy as long as you take your time.

[hubsonfire]

Wrong whine thread, Rod. This one's about divebombing, not defensive guns. If you can make a case for divebombing lancasters as improving gameplay, please do so. If you're just posting to be a smartass, please don't.

[Morpheus]

so Lets say okay 1 bomber formation no dive bombing. But then 1 death in fighter or gv and thats it you can't fly rest of TOD since this is realistic oh wait Most would cancel accounts. I wonder why HTC makes things seem unfair to some lol.

lol Rod you're a funny guy. I love ya man but one thing there has nothing to do with the other.

If we were to drop drop bombs in a real bomber the way some drop bombs here, the bombs would go through the top of the fuleselage, the wings would rip off and you'd be a flaming wreck right down the the ground.

Tell me why its ok to strive for accurate FM's for fighters and bombers yet  cut corners around all the other stuff dealing with a bomber? Since when did bombs shoot out of the bomb bay? That's what they have to be doing to be dropped while the plane is in a negative G dive... Tell me how often that happened. Tell me how often it happened with fighter/attack planes dropping bombs. A bomber can be at any angle of attack yet still let its bombs go with no problem at all..

[Mugzeee]

Originally posted by mussie
I am on dial up from Australia and can usually bomb a mouse at 10,000 ft, My ping is normally around the 400 mark....

I have to admit that lately I have had some bad drops but I think that was due to a rushed calibration (holding down the Y key and counting), If I give it a good 10-15 seconds I am normally fine.

I am going to test this out tonight when I get home.

mussie.
You wont be able to test what were are talking about off line.
You would need HT to set the flight mode flags to include "The Calibrated Bombsite" like it was before. To the On posistion...and then test it online in an arena with 400+ players.
Your off line test will be inconclusive because in offline mode or even H2H your connection issues and or video issues will be much different than while playing in an arena jam packed with players.

[ChopSaw]

Originally posted by Morpheus
Fixing the gamey bs bomber model will never happen. Its what keeps the newbs who come to play AH, playing. They have to have an ez mode to fall back on because learning how to fight in a fighter is far too difficult to handle. That would mean they'd have to try, and put some time into getting good at it.  The gamey BS bomb drop model bread and butter of todays AH. As long as HT likes money, the arcade bomber model will always exist, and bombers will always roll inverted into a dive, fully loaded with bombs at 450mph drop them on hangers and fly away 100% intact.

Someone want to explain to me the physics involved in safely dropping bombs at 2-3 negative G's? Or how its even posible? Not just bombers, but any plane carrying bombs.

We can see that HTC is willing to change things if they’re too simple and make them somewhat harder.  From what I understand early AH1 had no bomb site as we know it today.  Rather it was like what we see in the training arena.  A green X marks the spot.  Next came the Norden bomb site and now we have a slightly modified Norden modeling.  The only difference between the original Norden and the one we have now is you don’t have to click on the map with your mouse to indicate target altitude.  My feeling is this is a good change.  Often I’d get a varying report on the target altitude with only slight changes in mouse pointer placement.  It was a pain and not representative of how a bombardier would do it.  They had the altitude of the target and just input it into the sight.

As a bomber pilot I like the change to a harder style of bombing.  Additionally, if you read the posting here of other bomber pilots, you’ll see that they don’t care for the heavies to be used as dive bombers.  I think that eliminating the ability to use heavy bombers in this fashion would enhance the game.  As far as having a so called ez mode for “the newbs”, I don’t buy it.  People who need an ez mode aren’t the type to stick with this game anyway.  They run out their two weeks and leave.  I’m sure HTC knows that.  The “bread and butter” for HTC are people who come to this game and stay because they enjoy the challenge and contest.  Contrary to what you and seemingly most of the Blue Knights feel, that includes activities other than fighter piloting.

I agree with the need to eliminate dive bombing heavies or dropping bombs from anything in a negative G mode, but I have yet to see how a heavy can achieve 450 mph.  The wings come off far before that speed.  Your disdain for bombers should not lead you to exaggerate.

[rod367th]

Morpheus  Brits used lancs low level slight dive to kill sub pens. USE made killing bridges   art form low slight dives.  I like to Fly fighter bomb and gv. so it s not a bombers whine.  plenty of films out there including Jimmy stewart raid on german airbase. That show divebombing big bombers. granted not norm but was done.In My opinion if done real world should be able here. tho I hate suiciders on cv's like next guy but its part of game and  I never suicide cv but will defend others right too. Same as bombers Hq runs stopped when 163's came out. because people whined about 1 guy knocking out radar. Then when still hit whines got HQ harden  so now unless your out numbered and being beaten bad. only time your dar gone. should be other way around if you don't want to defend HQ  then its your fault no dar. But hey whines work this whine about bombers may work tooo.


  next whine will probally be guys wanting it mandatory for others to up a vulch base...... Guess bad mood  better stop.





 only thing that needs changeing first is troops  need to be killed by 2-3k not lone a6m.

[Mugzeee]

Originally posted by ChopSaw
We can see that HTC is willing to change things if they’re too simple and make them somewhat harder.  From what I understand early AH1 had no bomb site as we know it today.  Rather it was like what we see in the training arena.  A green X marks the spot.  

No there was no LCS (Lead Computing Sight). It was simply get into the Bomb Scope and drop when the cross hair's croosed the target.

Originally posted by ChopSaw
Next came the Norden bomb site and now we have a slightly modified Norden modeling.  The only difference between the original Norden and the one we have now is you don’t have to click on the map with your mouse to indicate target altitude.  

No actually the old Norden Site required that you not only click on the map to set Altitude. But you also had to use the joystick to freeze the cross hairs on a fixed ground object while you held the "Y" key down to set Speed. Just a tad of connection glitch or hicup and your speed calibration would suffer. Sometimes quite severly. You might have to go round 2 or even 3 passes till you were sure that everything went smooth before you could have confidence that you would hit your target. The proof was in the sharp decline of Hvy Bomber usage in game. It really sucked not to see the formations being used. While i fully support any efferot to stop Dive bombing in hvy bombers. I also support any effort that will not cause the sharp decline of hvy bombers in game like we suffered around August 2002 which carried untill the Bombsite was modified to its current state.

[ChopSaw]

Originally posted by Mugzeee
No there was no LCS (Lead Computing Sight). It was simply get into the Bomb Scope and drop when the cross hair's croosed the target.

I did say it was "like" what we see in the training arena today.  "Like" as in similar to.  Not exactly the same.  If simply going to the bomb sight and dropping when the cross hairs hit the target without any manual calibration isn't a lead computing sight, then what is it?

Originally posted by Mugzeee
No actually the old Norden Site required that you not only click on the map to set Altitude. But you also had to use the joystick to freeze the cross hairs on a fixed ground object while you held the "Y" key down to set Speed. Just a tad of connection glitch or hicup and your speed calibration would suffer. Sometimes quite severly. You might have to go round 2 or even 3 passes till you were sure that everything went smooth before you could have confidence that you would hit your target. The proof was in the sharp decline of Hvy Bomber usage in game. It really sucked not to see the formations being used. While i fully support any efferot to stop Dive bombing in hvy bombers. I also support any effort that will not cause the sharp decline of hvy bombers in game like we suffered around August 2002 which carried untill the Bombsite was modified to its current state..

Unless you know something I don't, if you do tell me, we still have to hold those crosshairs on a ground object while holding down on the Y key for speed calibration.  As I stated, the only difference between the old modeling and the current is clicking your mouse pointer on the clipboard map for target altitude.  It was a minor annoyance in AH1, but not one that hurt my accuracy unless I clicked in just the wrong spot and got the target altitude wrong.