Author Topic: Total revamp of joystick settings  (Read 1112 times)

Offline BTW

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Total revamp of joystick settings
« on: August 22, 2005, 07:27:01 PM »
Is there any way HT could revamp the joystick sensitivity settings to make them more useful? I look at the CH control manager, and it is possible to make the center area of the stick less sensitive than the outer areas (x, y, z, axis settings and curves). This does wonders in getting rid of nose bounce. I see no way to do this with AH sliders and there should be. Its sophisticated stick control and should be include in a game of this type. The game depends so much on stick input, the way the input is handled deserves a lot more attention. I have no idea of the philosophy behind the damper. As far as I know that a time sensitive thing used to get rid of twitches. It just doesn't make sense, unless one is twitching their arms over their head.

I'm not asking HT to copy anything from CH. But I think he could gain much by looking at their strategy for controlling x, y, axis.
The sliders as they are now, fall way way short of whats possible.

Its not eye candy, but I think revamping those controls would add much to the game.

The ability to make control much finer in the center areas of the stick (i.e., less sensitive to gross stick movement there) is needed.


Its possbile I don't understand the sliders as they exist - if not - I apologize. But if anyone is familiar with the axis settings in the CH control manager knows of a way to do the same thing with AH sliders - please tell.

I don't know if I'm describing it right, but when the stick is nearly centered, the player is most likely fine tuning the position. The stick should be less touchy there. In the outer areas, the player is making gross movements and the stick should be more repsonsive there.

If you picture the center of the stick,  you should have to move it much to get a plane movement. Away from the center, you should have to move the stick less to get the same plane movement. And at the edges of the stick, very little stick movement creates great plane movement.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2005, 08:07:13 PM by BTW »

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Total revamp of joystick settings
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2005, 08:14:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by BTW
Is there any way HT could revamp the joystick sensitivity settings to make them more useful? I look at the CH control manager, and it is possible to make the center area of the stick less sensitive than the outer areas (x, y, z, axis settings and curves). This does wonders in getting rid of nose bounce. I see no way to do this with AH sliders and there should be. Its sophisticated stick control and should be include in a game of this type. The game depends so much on stick input, the way the input is handled deserves a lot more attention. I have no idea of the philosophy behind the damper. As far as I know that a time sensitive thing used to get rid of twitches. It just doesn't make sense, unless one is twitching their arms over their head.

I'm not asking HT to copy anything from CH. But I think he could gain much by looking at their strategy for controlling x, y, axis.
The sliders as they are now, fall way way short of whats possible.

Its not eye candy, but I think revamping those controls would add much to the game.

The ability to make control much finer in the center areas of the stick (i.e., less sensitive to gross stick movement there) is needed.


Its possbile I don't understand the sliders as they exist - if not - I apologize. But if anyone is familiar with the axis settings in the CH control manager knows of a way to do the same thing with AH sliders - please tell.


The sliders in AH basically adjust the sensativity of your control inputs within the game.  The program that CH uses effects all games you use the controller in since you are adjusting the DirectInput settings directly.


Should HT add such a feature?  No, it's not needed.  You are better off using the joystick manufacturer's program for any adjustments like this.

Frankly, the joystick adjustments in AH are just fine and does not to be revamped.  It is a very versatile and robust system that allows a player to fine tune the sensativity of your controllers.

However, the CH program that you described and others similiar programs can help those that have joystick issues that can't be fixed with the AH stick scales.  But again, the player is better off using those programs since they are tailored to their respective products.


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Offline BTW

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Total revamp of joystick settings
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2005, 08:47:35 PM »
>>Should HT add such a feature? No, it's not needed. You are better off using the joystick manufacturer's program for any adjustments like this.
<<

Why? You don't think the ability to adjust the stick sensitivity near the center would be a good thing? They have a dead zone adjustment. It shouldn't be a dead zone adjustment. It should be a sensitivity adjustment. When sticks get sloppy, you turn down the sensitivity near the center - not turn it OFF near the center. The design of a dead zone is just WRONG. Turning it off a certain point instead of a gradient is just wrong thinking. There's a better way to do it.

And I still think the damper thing is totally misguided. It acts as a filter for rapid movements - ignoring the distance of movement. You can pull the stick all the way back and release it rapidly and not get a movement with damping set high. That's ridiculous. Who twitches that much and could play this game? The filtering should be range of movement - i.e, the ability to turn down (or up) stick sensitivity toward the center.


The slider can be made a whole lot better imo, and I see no reason in a game of this type, that AH should let stick manufacturers handle it. If that was the case, they would have NO sliders or calibration - as that could be done with manufacturer software. AH can program better control over sticks and there is no reason not to.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2005, 08:49:48 PM by BTW »

Offline Ack-Ack

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Total revamp of joystick settings
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2005, 09:01:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by BTW
>>Should HT add such a feature? No, it's not needed. You are better off using the joystick manufacturer's program for any adjustments like this.
<<

Why? You don't think the ability to adjust the stick sensitivity near the center would be a good thing? They have a dead zone adjustment. It shouldn't be a dead zone adjustment. It should be a sensitivity adjustment. When sticks get sloppy, you turn down the sensitivity near the center - not turn it OFF near the center. The design of a dead zone is just WRONG. Turning it off a certain point instead of a gradient is just wrong thinking. There's a better way to do it.


That CH program you are using, all it basically does is adjust the deadbands/damper in DirectInput.  In fact the recommended deadband setting for most joysticks is .5 at center.

Quote
And I still think the damper thing is totally misguided. It acts as a filter for rapid movements - ignoring the distance of movement. You can pull the stick all the way back and release it rapidly and not get a movement with damping set high. That's ridiculous. Who twitches that much and could play this game? The filtering should be range of movement - i.e, the ability to turn down (or up) stick sensitivity toward the center.


If you have to set that so high that control inputs aren't being reflected then you need a new joystick.  Dampen is basically used to adjust the sensativity of the signal to the stick and can be used to help mitigate spiky inputs inherent with analog joysticks and even some digital sticks.


Quote
The slider can be made a whole lot better imo, and I see no reason in a game of this type, that AH should let stick manufacturers handle it. If that was the case, they would have NO sliders or calibration - as that could be done with manufacturer software. AH can program better control over sticks and there is no reason not to.


The reason why it's better left to the manufacturers is that each stick is different.  And some programs are tailored specifically for their respective sticks.  Also, any changes made in these programs are written dirctectly into DirectInput and will effect your controllers in any game you play.
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Offline BTW

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Total revamp of joystick settings
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2005, 09:16:57 PM »
>>That CH program you are using, all it basically does is adjust the deadbands/damper in DirectInput. In fact the recommended deadband setting for most joysticks is .5 at center.<<

No it does something completely different. Deadbands are turned OFF. There is a dead band option (to turn bands off) in the axis setting of the CH control manager (1-100 as a matter of fact), but the useful feature is the curves where one creates a *gradient*. What it does is create a gradient of stick sensitivity over an axis, and the gradient can flow inward or outward. That is completely different than dead bands. A gradient is sophisticated stick handling. A dead band truncates information and a gradient adapts (averages) information (like antialiasing in visual and audio mediums). Truncation is a primitive way of handling input - antialiasing or filtering is more sophisticated.

I hate to be so emphatic - but its just wrong.

Offline Ack-Ack

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Total revamp of joystick settings
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2005, 11:22:11 PM »
Deadband is used to increase/decrease the amount of input needed to send a signal.  When you dampen the controls, you increase/decrease the sensativity of those signals.

That is basically what you're doing, the CH Control Manager program lets you fine tune those settings.

There is no need for HT to add such a thing to AH since most joystick manufacturers already have programs to allow you to do this.  For those that don't come with one, there are programs readily available that will adjust these settings in DirectInput.  In fact Logitech has, or at least used to have, a very good one they put out when they originally released the Logitech Wingman FF stick.  The program was so good that we used to use it all the time when I used to work at CH.

Honestly, the stick scaling in AH is very well done and no real need to improve it.  


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Offline BTW

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Total revamp of joystick settings
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2005, 05:59:19 AM »
If the slider controls are adequate in AH, tell me how do I set up the X45 so the area near the center of motion is less sensitive than the area away from the center of motion.

If the sliders in AH are adequate, I should be able to do this. I want 1/16th of an inch of stick movement near the center of the y axis to have 1/4 of the output that 1/16 of an inch of stick movement has on the edges of the y axis.

How do I set that up with AH sliders?


Edit - ok I did not understand the sliders properly. Setting the  lower bands (0,10,20 etc..) down, decreases stick output toward the center of that axis. Setting the lower bands high would increase output near center and decrease it on the edges of the axis. Think I have it now - thanks.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2005, 06:24:02 AM by BTW »

Offline Siaf__csf

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Total revamp of joystick settings
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2005, 06:19:20 AM »
Tried making an U shape of the stick sliders? I'm not exactly sure how it'll effect but I think it should be close.

I always set damping and deadband to zero and set the sliders to a logarythmic rise - nothing else is needed for adjustment.

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Offline LLv34_Snefens

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Total revamp of joystick settings
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2005, 06:21:07 AM »
I don't see what you want AH to include that isn't already there.
You CAN adjust the sensitivity of each axis near the center.

"I want 1/16th of an inch of stick movement near the center of the y axis to have 1/4 of the output that 1/16 of an inch of stick movement has on the edges of the y axis."

I don't understand this sentence.

There is a tutorial at netaces.org that explains this much better. Scroll down on this linked page:

http://www.netaces.org/ahsetup/joystick.html#title
« Last Edit: August 23, 2005, 06:23:21 AM by LLv34_Snefens »
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Offline Tilt

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Total revamp of joystick settings
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2005, 06:25:31 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by BTW
If the slider controls are adequate in AH, tell me how do I set up the X45 so the area near the center of motion is less sensitive than the area away from the center of motion.

If the sliders in AH are adequate, I should be able to do this. I want 1/16th of an inch of stick movement near the center of the y axis to have 1/4 of the output that 1/16 of an inch of stick movement has on the edges of the y axis.

How do I set that up with AH sliders?


http://www.hitechcreations.com/ahgs/jssettings.html

see joystick scaling
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Offline BTW

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Total revamp of joystick settings
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2005, 06:40:33 AM »
I have it now - I just totaly misunderstood the bands.  You can manipulate the axis just as you do in the CH control manager.

I was thinking of the bands 40, 50, and 60 as near the center of the axis, when actually, 0, 20, 30,  is near the center.
The full axis would look like   ...50 40 30 20 10 0 10 20 30 40 50...

So - as Gilda Radner used to say... "nevermind"

Offline Tilt

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« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2005, 06:45:49 AM »
Your welcome:)
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Offline BTW

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Total revamp of joystick settings
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2005, 06:46:03 AM »
>>Tried making an U shape of the stick sliders? I'm not exactly sure how it'll effect but I think it should be close.
<<

The default settings is a u shape, but the interface only shows you half the "u" - the other half is mirrored. Thats where I was getting confused.