Author Topic: FLC has lost its mind  (Read 2147 times)

Offline Dowding

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FLC has lost its mind
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2000, 08:26:00 PM »
You can do a simple analysis of the error quite easily. Just work out the percentage error that would have to exist to make a 300 vote difference be discernible after a total ballot of serveral million ballot papers. I worked it out and posted it somewhere on this BB.

It was almost infinitesimally small - a tolerance that could not exist considering the machines doing the counting.

It would not be impossible for Gore to have already won.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Nash

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FLC has lost its mind
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2000, 10:19:00 PM »
"Think about it, would you ask for a recount if you were ahead?" - Rip

I *did* think about it   I went on to say why Bush chose to fight the recount and further said that if I were him, I would have done the same thing. Duh, of course.

But don't think that Bush holds some real strong values about the recount process (he doesn't) - it was merely a strategic decision. It's only some of *you* who have been waving the "Recounts just aint right, dammit!" flag. Now that y'all don't have the "selective county" issue to rally behind, I'm sure you will dig up some other reason why counting votes that weren't even registered by the damn machines in the first place, should be tossed out. "Oh my god - they may be tossing out the out-of-state votes!".... Yet you refuse to understand that there are thousands upon thousands of votes that *were* on the verge of being tossed out merely because this machine...er... have you seen one of these things in action? Think Las Vegas automatic card shuffler - it's just that fast.

That's why there are *laws* mandating a second look. Yes, in Bush's own state (they aint all optical scanners), and damn near every other state, if not all of them, they have these laws. Why? Well, several thousand legislators have have spent several thousand hours examining the issue. Their answer? Because! And before you go off saying "but how can you manually divine the will of the voter?", wake up. As if this issue occured to all of these lawmakers for the very first time now in Florida. It's not voodoo. If it were as flakey as some make it out to be, it wouldn't BE law.

Now....Yegads but what's happening! Florida is upholding the law!

Anyways - Bush's posture has been merely Gore-like. ie. Purely self serving. Aint nuthin' wrong with that. Yes, and *you* guys have all been duly obsequious (the sound of polite clapping). e-mail me and I will give you the proper address to which you may send your Bush legal fund cheques. Bahhhhhh.

To borrow a phrase from our friend Hristo, I marvel at the political oppurtunism on this board. "Dammit those lefties in the supreme court are gonna steal this one! Bring in the non-biased (scoff) Florida legislature to choose the slate of electors but FAST!"

I fart in your general direction  



Offline Gunthr

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FLC has lost its mind
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2000, 10:35:00 PM »
 <S>
Actually, I think it's more likely that the US Supreme Court will fix this half-prettythanged FSC decision, and the Presidency will be decided there, afterall.

I can also easily visualize the US Supremes doing a Starchamber number, and deciding to end it here, for the good of the country, regardless of their individual beliefs. Of course, they just might prefer GW's philosophy anyways, and not need to go that far...  One thing for sure, FSC needs a major backhand slap and a general tune-up. Political heads will roll...  

Gunthr
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Offline Nash

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FLC has lost its mind
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2000, 10:39:00 PM »
Lol I forgot about the Starchamber option.

Hey - it's already almost *that* weird now. Who knows?  

Offline Nash

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FLC has lost its mind
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2000, 10:51:00 PM »
Erhm... just to head off any argument here... call it a preemptive strike.    

In the great state of Texas, they count hanging chads, pregnant chads and dimpled chads. They indeed have chad bearing ballots, and they indeed have a law mandating a recount of those chad bearing ballots. As signed into law by your saviour, George W Bush.

How he could express outrage at the potential denial of a fair democratic process (out ot state votes), while at the same time attempting to deny a fair democratic process (counting unregistered ballots) is waaay beyond my understanding.

I'm being facetious, I understand completely.


---edit---

To take this right back up to the original post:

 
Quote
Kieren: "Hand recounts of all counties using the Gore standard?"

<sigh.....> First it was that this recount was too selective. Now that *that's* out of play, it's now some "Gore standard".

This process is playing out just exactly as was enacted/mandated by the elections branch(republican) of the Florida legislature. They created this process. This process is indeed not unlike the exact same process used in every state in the Union. Including Texas. Gore is following it.

The very recount process is playing out just exactly as was enacted/mandated by the elections branch (republican) of the Florida legislature. This process is indeed not unlike the exact same process used in every state in the Union. Including Texas. Gore is following it.

Please clarify for us, Kieren, what you mean by "the Gore standard".




[This message has been edited by Nash (edited 12-08-2000).]

Offline Fatty

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FLC has lost its mind
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2000, 12:37:00 AM »
Expect more lawsuits from whoever loses, as Judge Lewis has already ruled on counting procedures.  Those will be left up to the individual canvassing boards, and if you don't think those are going to be weighted to both sides (depending on the county's general preference for president), you haven't lived in Florida  

The reason I have a problem with this is you can do it twice, with the exact same rules, and get two completely different winners.  Honestly Bush probably will come out ahead, as 2/3 of the democratic strongholds have already been counted, and Dade is likely to get started first.  Ensuing counts in the rural republican counties will be done knowing how much they have to make up (much like was done in Broward).  Democrats will complain this is unfair, and they will be right, but what can you do?

Of course, if you read the opinions, the Florida Chief Justice is pleading for the Supreme Court to save him from his fellows on the bench.

Offline Nash

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FLC has lost its mind
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2000, 01:59:00 AM »
In actuality, Fatty, he was not pleading for the Supremes to save him from his fellows on the bench, but to save him from actually having to form an opinion on his own. That which he is <cough> paid to do. His opinion was not borne of due process, but *in spite* of it. It was actually quite a peculiar stance to take.

Not directed at you Fatty - but I cannot wait to see the folks on this board start quoting those damn Democrat FSC bastards  

Offline Fatty

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FLC has lost its mind
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2000, 02:19:00 AM »
Did you read his opinion though Nash?  Here, starting on page 40 for about 20 pages.  The one thing he did not do was hold back on his opinion.  The criticism he had for his own court's ruling is really like nothing I've ever seen.

Offline Fatty

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« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2000, 02:23:00 AM »
And yeah, some of my fellow republicans are pretty hard core  

I do think we'll see the Supreme Court order a halt this weekend, followed by an eventual overturn, but even if not I still think Bush will win (promting more lawsuits, those actually probably legitimate, because I can't fathom an accurate count coming out of that, it's essentially a coin flip).

If neither of those, a Gore presidency would be far better than the 2002 backlash of the Florida legislature naming its own electorate (legal though it may be).

[This message has been edited by Fatty (edited 12-09-2000).]

Offline Nash

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FLC has lost its mind
« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2000, 02:28:00 AM »
Heh yah, I read the entire ruling, dissenting opinions included. I had a monster of a reply to you all ready to fire off when my comp crashed. Crushing when that happens!

Er, as an interesting aside, do you remember when Margo Kidder went absolutely insane, and was found days later living on the streets of Hollywood? The reason? She had completed her biography... her entire life story, and had only saved it to a single floppy disk. The disk became corrupt, and three years of work went right down the tube.

Anyways, yeah I reckon I'm gonna have to flesh out my vague re-reply. Not tonight though  

Offline Nash

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FLC has lost its mind
« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2000, 03:39:00 AM »
God I sucked out there tonight. I shoulda kept typing here and not even bothered to go into the MA  

But before I finally drop off to bed, let me give a reason why the stats being proposed, this "same outcome, only larger scale" idea is flawed.

The ugly truth. It assumes that every county in Florida used the same voting procedure. It didn't. The affluent counties used optical ballots (accurate), while the less affluent were stuck with these prehistoric punch ballots. Just as we know who gets the military vote, we know who gets the vote of the less affluent. Despite seeming objections to the contrary, the poor have a right to have their votes counted, their voices heard. One damned way or another.

You all are hanging your words on technical principles, but it's wearing thin. You fear a recount for one reason. You will lose it.

Offline Fatty

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« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2000, 04:52:00 AM »
 
Quote
The affluent counties used optical ballots (accurate), while the less affluent were stuck with these prehistoric punch ballots. Just as we know who gets the military vote, we know who gets the vote of the less affluent. Despite seeming objections to the contrary, the poor have a right to have their votes counted, their voices heard. One damned way or another.

This isn't directed at you Nash, but this line of reporting the last few weeks has really gotten on my nerves, because it's simply not true.  I hate to get into a case of "biased media", in this case I write it off simply to "lovely research."

Palm Beach, Dade, and Broward counties are not the poorest counties in Florida.  They're not in the poorest half of counties in Florida.  They're in fact the richest areas in Florida (per capita arguable versus Central Florida, Tampa Bay, and Tallahassee (which doesn't really count because it's too small to really be counted)).  I don't know why they're using the punch cards, likely because it is cheaper, and they've had no serious problems to this point, but it sure as hell isn't due to lack of ability to fund newer voting mechanisms.

There is nothing between Tallahassee and Pensacola resembling a city, much less a school of any sort, nor is there between Tallahassee and Jacksonville.  There is nothing between Tallahassee and Orlando (except Gainsville, but outside University of Florida, there is nothing there either).  These are areas where I would be damned suprised if the average person has seen a high school, much less attended one, are completely overlooked because they went strongly pro-Bush.

It simply doesn't fit the model as poor areas that meant to vote for Gore but the system betrayed them.  Looking at the AP county vote totals (including undervotes), Dade is at 1.4%.  There are numerous counties where the undervote is higher than this, yet inexplicably these people must not have known that the Democrats are the caring ones (or they've noticed over the years that the democrats don't care).  Other undercount totals:

Hendry:     8.7% (1.47:1 votes Bush over Gore)
Baker:      6%   (2.35:1 Bush/Gore)
Washington: 3.6% (1.79:1 Bush/Gore)
Sumpter:    2.7% (1.26:1 Bush/Gore)
Marion:     2.4% (1.23:1 Bush/Gore)
Indian Rvr: 2.1% (1.45:1 Bush/Gore)

Also with NO undercount because they are handcounted (cannot afford any sort of voting machine) are:

Dixie:   1.51:1 Bush/Gore
Wakulla: 1.18:1 Bush/Gore
Madison: Even.

These counties don't have the vast resources of Palm Beach/Broward/Dade to bring their canvassing boards to national attention, hell if it wasn't for state highways they wouldn't even have roads.  On a side note, this is where I think you're going to see some astounding Bush totals from the "recount", in a county of 10,000 people I assure you they will have no problem either morally or logisticly in finding another couple hundred Bush votes, even if they have to come up with more voters.  After all full authority is granted to the canvassing board, in this case Bubba, Joe Bob, and Sue Ellen.

The mere assumption that Palm Beach, Florida, is some poor downtrodden area that the rest of rich Florida is neglecting pisses me off to no end.  Not that I blame you for quoting it here, because it's reported everywhere you look, but that national media would report such idiocy without even looking at the state they're reporting on.



Offline Eagler

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FLC has lost its mind
« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2000, 11:01:00 AM »
Go Fatty go !!

Nash, when we want any sh#t out of you, we'll just squeeze your head  

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Offline Eagler

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FLC has lost its mind
« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2000, 01:29:00 PM »
Fatty

It's simple. The areas high in old people, lower income blacks and/or gays voted for gore. Areas with mostly white men and women with any intelligence and the military voted for Bush. The rest is all spin. Sorry if that sounds bias, bigoted or racist. Not meaning too, just the truth. Now we are counting mistakes err "under votes" to choose the next president. What a bunch of crap! To me this is just the latest attempt to undermine Bush's presidency when he finally takes office, by the extreme left (left to the point of being Red), otherwise known as Democrats, who since they didn't win it outright are busy dragging someone else's victory through the mud of negative "I'm a victim" public opinion.

Eagler

 .. who still has his Bush sign planted in his front yard!
 
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Offline Fatty

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FLC has lost its mind
« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2000, 01:37:00 PM »
At any rate, the Supreme Court just granted a stay of the hand counting.