Author Topic: Next Threshold?  (Read 402 times)

Offline Halo

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« on: August 18, 2005, 08:04:31 PM »
I'm wondering what the next major threshold will be as far as max bang for buck in playing Aces High and all the residual benefits in other programs.

I have a P4 XP and an Athlon 64 3300 XP, running AH only on the former, and it's looking as if it will be time to replace the P4 XP in the next year or two.  Aces High is running well enough for me now (although gotta admit I rarely fly anymore, waiting for I don't know what).  

Will 64-bit be standard by then?  Dual processor?  What does AH consider the optimum equipment to play it in the next year or so?

XP replacement is expected in 2006, so at the moment my long-range replacement outlook is for something like the XP replacement with 64-bit dual processors (? not sure I'm decribing this accurately) around September 2006.  

The main question is what do you expert players and computer tweakers see as the optimum equipment buy in the next year or two, i.e., the next main plateau to wait for instead of buying things that soon will be outmoded?
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Offline Overlag

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« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2005, 05:02:45 AM »
the A64's is miles faster than the XP.

and im not sure what a "P4 XP" is either....

edit: ah looks like you talking about WinXP, and not the proccessor XP... so im not entirely sure what your asking, if you already have a A64....
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Offline eagl

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« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2005, 02:41:31 PM »
An A64 3300 ought to run most games faster than almost any P4.  If you have a very high end P4 however, then you may as well stick with that until AMD and Intel figure out their next gen and settle on things like the memory standard and socket.

From what I've read, if you're upgrading now then an AMD socket 939 is still a good bet because their next gen socket and chipset is still quite a ways in the future.  But if you are happy now, then wait at least 6-12 months to see how the dual cpu war progresses.  If AMD can increase the yields on their X2 cpus and get the price down closer to the dual core Intel cpus, then AMD is going to set the standard.  But right now the price diff is out of the question in favor of Intel.  The super high volume is in home and business rigs, and as soon as a business IT guy can choose to get a dual core cpu for a price jump of $10-$15 per cpu like they were able to do when hyperthreading made it to the sub-$300 P4s, then you'll see them take off fast.  A dual core cpu would help me at work a LOT because the military loads a crapload of useless-but-necessary junk onto every computer, and just sitting there the computer uses nearly 256 meg of ram and 60% cpu in a P4 box.  In general use, that equates to the computer simply failing to respond smoothly and occasionally hanging for up to 20 seconds as it gonks on whatever it thinks is more important than the work you're doing.  Dual core would let the computer do it's thinking on one cpu while you can do your work on the other.

If it's a $150 per box diff, they simply won't make it into the office.  At $15 per box diff, they will.  Right now Intel is the closest with a low end dual core cpu priced under $300, while AMD's admittedly better low-end X2 cpu will run well over $400.  For general acceptance of dual core, Intel is pushing that just like AMD started the 64 bit transition.

For AH specifically, we'll see 2 things - First, denials and forecasts of doom and gloom aside, games will simply be forced to find ways to use multiple cpu cores.  It was only 7-8 years ago when certain game developers scoffed at the idea of a 3D GPU offloading graphics to a card in an expansion slot (just think of the bus latencies!!!!!!!!!) but look at the state of the art now.  The games that jump on it now will reap the benefits, and those that don't will be forced to try to advance their games using half or less of a cpu with a core clock speed no greater than we have today.

Although Skuzzy talks down dual core cpus, I find it heartening that the original CK took advantage of certain graphics speedups found only in S3 chipped video cards, so maybe HT will be willing to step towards the leading edge again with this dual core cpu business.  Maybe it's apples and oranges but I really think single core cpu speeds are going to stagnate badly so it's time to get with the program and make it work.

Second, we'll continue to see a discrepancy between framerate advances and image quality.  The type of box that today gets 40 fps (high end?  Godbox?  Value?) will in 2-3 years still get 40 fps, but the image quality and screen resolution will dramatically improve.  This is because a virtual world game engine has a finite amount of tasks that must be done in it's processing cycle, including network transactions, physics calculations, graphics, etc., and improvements in computer subsystems will probably only speed up portions of that cycle at a time.  I don't know what percentage of the standard game cycle AH uses for graphics vs. everything else, but it seems like 80% or so of that cycle is purely cpu dependent.  In practice, that means that buying into any single technology will probably never boost your AH framerates more than 20%, no matter how advanced that technology is.

I could be waaaay off base, but I've had 10 years of playing HT's games and I don't remember ever seeing an upgrade cycle that "revolutionized" how the game played.  Wait 2 years and spend $2000, wait 6 months and spend $500, and it's all the same - you'll see only an incremental improvement from any purchase unless you're upgrading everything from a horribly obsolete system.

The wildcard may be that physics processor...  If anyone can actually get any useful work and solve latency issues, then it could help a lot in a game like AH.  If drawing the screen can be done relatively independently of calculating what is actually sent to the GPU for display, then why can't the cpu just act as the timekeeper, feeding on-time events to and from the physics processor and the vid card for display?  Again, lots of people are saying it won't help just like they're saying dual cpus won't work and a GPU wouldn't work, but I think that those who can make it work are going to reap huge benefits while those game developers who don't jump onboard will be left behind in a completely stagnant market of single cpu core speeds that never increase.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2005, 02:45:09 PM by eagl »
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Offline Skuzzy

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« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2005, 02:58:48 PM »
eagl, you have misunderstood me.  I do not talk down about dual core or multi-CPU in as much as I say games cannot really take advantage of those technologies.

Sure, we could market AH as a multi-threaded monster simply due to it using networking, which is threaded.  Or the sound channels on good sound cards, which are also thread.

Game code is too far removed from the hardware to be able to effectively make use of multi-CPU anything.  There are dev houses which will improve thier code and use. 'we made use of dual CPU technology" as the tag line for how they improved performance, when in reality, they did nothing but fix some poorly written code and had to say something as to how they increased performance.  Besides, it sounds soooooo coooool.

This is not my opinion eagl.  Tim Sweeney has said pretty much the same thing.  Carmack says, "I am moving to the XBox, so I could care less.  PC's are a mess today.".  Gabe Newell used some comparison along the lines of, "If programming shaders were a 6, on a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being the most difficult, multi-threading a game would be a 40".

Anyone buying into the marketing that dual core/multi CPU is going to be a great benefit to games does not understand the overall architecture of how games work under Windows.  The architecture itself is not designed for it and Vista/Longhorn looks about the same, so it will be a really long time before this is something useful.

The only benefit you can derive today, would be the fact that other things can run on the other CPU.  As long as they are sporadic (such as all the programs Windows fires off every few seconds), then some measure of performance can be found in a game.  It is perfectly reasonable to expect a little smoother performance in this scenario.
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Offline Skuzzy

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« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2005, 03:03:08 PM »
Oh yes, the next step.

Me, I am waiting until DDR2 RAM is no longer being used as it is stupid.  Just stupid.  Slower, in most cases, than DDR1, and three times more heat.  Stupid, stupid, stupid.

More marketing crap at work.

Intel is lost.  AMD is happy to be in 'marketing' heaven.

It is a lousy time to be thinking about computers.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2005, 04:50:39 PM by Skuzzy »
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Offline bloom25

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« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2005, 04:29:58 PM »
I'll agree with you 100% Skuzzy.  Really signficant PC hardware advancements are few and far between recently.  Dual core CPUs are, of course, an overall "good thing" but the real world benefits to the average computer user are just not as significant as marketing gurus at both AMD and Intel would like you to believe.  

DDR2 memory really lost its reason for existance once DDR1 memory was reliably working at beyond 400 MHz effective speeds.  Other than on-module bus termination, which makes it easier to have multiple higher clocked modules on the same memory bus, there is really little significant improvements over DDR1.

Fortunately in my space the advancements in wireless networking this past year have been tremendous.  I've been playing with 1xEVDO and 802.16 (WiMAX) devices and networks recently and it is just amazing what you can do wirelessly these days.  1xEVDO is Sprint and Verizon's 3G data network and achieves 73.6 kbps up and 1.5 Mbps download rates.  The WiMax networks I'm testing are getting 512 kbps up and 1.5 Mbps down with a 60 ms average ping.  That's basically a wireless T1.  

The company I work for specializes in wireless solutions focused primarily on public safety and homeland security.  Want to stream 10 - 30 fps TV quality video (MPEG 4 or wavelet compression) from a pan tilt zoom capable camera wirelessly?  We can do it in something no larger than a shoebox, batteries included.  That means live real time video (and/or audio) is now a reality from public safety vehicles.  It will be practical and more affordable this coming year.

Offline Skuzzy

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« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2005, 04:49:40 PM »
Heya bloom!  You are alive!  WOOHOO!

I have been keeping an eye on wireless tech, but have found little on what you are talking about.  Sounds really good.  Thanks for sharing!
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Offline JTs

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« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2005, 09:05:05 PM »
I worked at Burroughs Systems in Westlake Village, Ca. in 1977.  we made the Burroughs 712. it was 6 feet tall 3 feet wide and 2 and 1/2 feet deep.  what was it used for?  why the USAF used it for anti-missile computers.  oh how we laughed at those Altair personal computers. the next theshold? how about the one that fits in your pocket projects to a heads up and cost about 400 and plays AH2 at 60fps with no network lag.  I'm not laughing any more.
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Offline Ghosth

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« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2005, 07:16:14 AM »
Wireless is hitting our area shortly.

Moorhead Minnesota is going with a municipal wireless plan. 30$ a month for 1.5mbps down. Looks like a friend of mine is going to be in the first 1000 people to test it. I'll let you know how it goes.

A local Fargo company is also offering a similar package. But at almost double the cost.

As for computers, its the first time in 10 years that I can remember seeing the same chipset/CPU for sale 2 to 3 years later.

The same motherboard/chipset/cpu that is in my almost 3 year old computer is still being sold on main line sites.

While I hear lots of talk about 64's and duel cores, I really want to give them at least a year to get the bugs out. And to build some boards that can really handle it.

Wish I  had a new computer but really don't see the point at this time.

Offline JTs

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« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2005, 02:43:46 PM »
if youre near fargo go over to the flyingj truckstop. take your laptop and test this  we have wireless at the truckstop inside and in our cabs. cost 19.95 a month and is nationwide.