Author Topic: Wish: Please change fuel loading scheme  (Read 4075 times)

Offline straffo

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Wish: Please change fuel loading scheme
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2005, 03:23:31 PM »
thank for this nice provocation.

Offline Sandman

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Wish: Please change fuel loading scheme
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2005, 04:50:13 PM »
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Originally posted by Jnuk
what does fuel multiplier have to do with it?
if fuel multiplier was off i'd just take 25% and drop tanks


The simple solution is to set the fuel modifier to something reasonable and then remove drop tanks completely.

As they are, they're simply used to game the game.
sand

Offline Wotan

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Wish: Please change fuel loading scheme
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2005, 05:30:59 PM »
I said this from the way back in AH2 beta when they went with a high multiplier.

Folks cried about how unfair it was to make the Ami's fight with 'a lot of fuel'. My response 'let then fly around the map burning it off'.

The only thing the fuel modifyer did was restrcit the range of non-Ami late war planes.

All the DTs do is allow any one in an Ami plane to game it up with their:

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25% and drop tanks


As proven by the replies in this thread...

Straffo is right:

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It's just exploitation of a weakness in the game.

Offline Jnuk

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Wish: Please change fuel loading scheme
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2005, 05:38:27 PM »
I guess I just don't see it as gaming the game.  
Some planes have different gun packages, one lighter than another.  Is it gaming the game to take the light one?

It may or may not have been done, but that doesn't mean that it couldn't have been done.

Offline MANDO

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Wish: Please change fuel loading scheme
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2005, 06:36:05 PM »
Kweassa, agree with you. And while racks for DTs now cause some drag, the light internal fuel load during combat overcompensates it.

Jnuk, "curiously", the Ami planes have not only different gun packages, but also different ammo load choices.

Offline Kweassa

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Wish: Please change fuel loading scheme
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2005, 07:53:21 PM »
It's simple logic.

 HTC upped the fuel multiplier for the following reasons IMO;

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1) They want to the differences between the planes to show distinctly, so the nimble-but-short-ranged fighters will be facing range problems, and the heavy-but-long-ranged planes would be facing weight problems.

2) They want people using the new RPM/boost related fuel conservation effects.


 Despite the huge initial complaints, IMO the 2.0 fuel burn multiplier did work well. In many of the shorter legged planes, I for example, would be travelling with cruise settings most of the time before combat.

 Unfortunately, the small overlook in the fuel loading scheme has warped reason 1) in a way that the short-ranged planes feel the impact drastically, but the longer ranged planes do not.

 A P-51 with 25% internal flies even longer than an La-7 at 50% - except by use of DTs, the P-51 can fly enroute, grab alt, and choose all sorts of tactical situations for itself which the La-7 cannot, due to the high fuel burn and limited internal range.

 For one thing, the La-7 has markedly paid the price of it's performance, by having to carry heavy internal fuel load and STILL be limited to short range...but what price did the P-51 pay in contrast - NOTHING.

  If the P-51 should have the leisure of flying at higher alts and longer ranges, then it should also be faced with the problems of heavier internal load, instead of being granted waiver from such by use of the instant "dumpweight" DTs.

 Due to the current fuel loading scheme, the longer ranged planes, by use of the DT, misses out both reasons of 1) and 2) stated in the beginning. It's neither effected from the 2.0 fuel multiplier, nor has to use cruise settings or RPM management.

 Whilst a Yak and La have to go to alt, throttle/RPM back, and try to conserve as much fuel as they can, the P-51 or P-38 just flies with 25% or 50% internal  with DTs, flies enroute with full military. Even with DTs the P-38 or the P-51 is a lot faster and climbs faster than a Yak or a La flying at cruise.

 And when combat situation arises, due to stated reasons the Yaks and Las must fight with heavy internal loads most of the times(unless they want to be stranded in enemy territory, unable to make it back). Prolonged use of WEP or full military knocks back on flight time drastically, so the Las and the Yaks must choose its fights carefully, looking at their fuel gauges every moment....whereas the P-51 or the P-38 would just dump DTs, instantly revert to the "light version", and then go utilize it's advantage, shoot down enemies, and still be left with enough fuel to go back.

 If there's anything to call BS, I call that.

 If a P-38 or a P-51 wants lighter weight for combat, then it should be taking off with 50% in the first place - lighter weight, at the price of markedly shorter range and the need to conserve fuel - JUST LIKE ANY OTHER PLANE.

 If a P-38 or a P-51 wants a longer range and the leisure to fly higher than other people, then it should be taking off with heavier fuel load of 100% - longer range, at the expense of weight and combat maneuverability - JUST LIKE ANY OTHER PLANE. This, is already an  advantage of being in a longer ranged plane. The shorter ranged planes have no way of extending range even if they wished it. The longer ranged planes are given a choice on flight time which the shorter planes aren't.

 But currently, they areable to have it both ways - fly longer and higher, but at lighter combat weight at the same time - which is just plain exploiting the fuel loading system and doubling the advantage of being in a longer-ranged plane to unnecessary levels.


 If they want to fly an extra-longer ie. mission escorts and sorts, then that's where they should be using the DTs.




 You guys want lighter combat weight in P-47Ns or P-51s? FINE.

 TAKE 50% fuel and fly with it.

 You hate that? Why?

 The reasons you hate that, is something which every other plane is already experiencing. I'm not dumping an UNFAIR shackle or something on you guys. You already have and ADVANTAGE in that your long-ranged plane has been given a choice whether to fly longer but heavier, or fly shorter but lighter.

 You guys don't need a second advantage, which makes you exempt from all the problems which every plane must face, in the basic premise of "balance".
« Last Edit: September 01, 2005, 08:07:42 PM by Kweassa »

Offline Ack-Ack

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Wish: Please change fuel loading scheme
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2005, 09:50:36 PM »
Wow..a doctoral thesis and a whine all in the same post!

Who flies a P-38 with only 25% fuel?  Someone that doesn't want to fly for long, that's for sure.  Most of us(those with experience in it that is) usually take 75% internal load and 1 DT. DT to get us to cruise alltitude and to the target then we rely on our internal load.  On attack runs I always take 100% fuel in addition to a full ordnance load.  Don't ever recall ever taking less than 50% internal fuel load unless I was in the DA.



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Offline straffo

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Wish: Please change fuel loading scheme
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2005, 11:54:31 PM »

Offline Kweassa

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Wish: Please change fuel loading scheme
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2005, 06:05:01 AM »
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Who flies a P-38 with only 25% fuel? Someone that doesn't want to fly for long, that's for sure. Most of us(those with experience in it that is) usually take 75% internal load and 1 DT. DT to get us to cruise alltitude and to the target then we rely on our internal load.


 Take 100% and burn 20~30% enroute.


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On attack runs I always take 100% fuel in addition to a full ordnance load. Don't ever recall ever taking less than 50% internal fuel load unless I was in the DA.


 In these occasions, got no beef wif you.

Offline Jnuk

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Wish: Please change fuel loading scheme
« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2005, 10:27:27 AM »
You guys make it sound as if american planes are the only planes with drop tanks.  British, German, and Japanese planes have drop tanks too.

I still don't see what all the fuss is about.  Drop tanks in real life allow you to get farther, or stay on station longer.  DT in AH allow you to get farther, or stay on station longer.

I think they upped the fuel burn rate because of the compact maps.  So called "short range" fighters could fly across the whole country, and the "long range" fighters could fly laps around the map.  
I'm pretty sure HT wasn't trying to FORCE anyone to have to use the RPM/Boost fuel conservation features.  That was implemented because its a pretty cool feature people had been asking for, for quite a while.

I guess im just gonna hafta agree to disagree with ya'll on this one.  Unless you can prove to me that it could not be done.

Offline Wotan

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Wish: Please change fuel loading scheme
« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2005, 11:02:12 AM »
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You guys make it sound as if american planes are the only planes with drop tanks. British, German, and Japanese planes have drop tanks too.


It doesn't , matter if the 'British, German, and Japanese planes have drop tanks too'.

Their internal fuel is small. Even if they take DTs they won't have '25% or Even 50%' internal like the Ami gamers. Besides the request is to force 100% internal fuel before DTs are available would  apply to all planes.

Japanese planes never need a 'dt' except in scenarios...

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I'm pretty sure HT wasn't trying to FORCE anyone to have to use the RPM/Boost fuel conservation features.


Those of us like Kweassa, Straffo and others know and remember those threads where 'fuel consumption' and Ami gaming (25% and Dts) were debated in the AH2 beta. The reason for the high FBM was to force 'fuel management' and limit the amount of time planes would run at 100% throttle. It was pointed out then, by the same folks re-stating it now, that a high FBM scheme will have no effect on the Ami gamers. They will always take 25% (or 50%) and DTs while the rest get penalized with limited range and flight time.

That is exactly what happens and that is exactly what Kweassa's thread is about.

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Drop tanks in real life allow you to get farther, or stay on station longer. DT in AH allow you to get farther, or stay on station longer.


What DTs do in AH is allow the Ami gamers the ability to dump large amounts of fuel to lighten their combat weight. With fields in the 20 - 30 mile range there's no need for DTs at all.

As has been suggested going back into the AH2 beta to use DTs it should first require 100% internal. If the Ami gamers are worried about 'combat weight' then they should fly around and burn off excess fuel rather then use their DTs as an instant fuel dump.

In the main that iss all DTs are used for with Ami planes. Just to dump combat weight. If you want 'extended' range or time on station first take 100% if thats not enough then take DTs.

Offline hitech

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Wish: Please change fuel loading scheme
« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2005, 11:34:24 AM »
Ahh I understand now :huh , It is perfectly acceptible to take less fuel to help your combat weight. But taking droping tanks to help your combat weight is totaly different and unacceptible.

Oh and because all 25% are equal no disadvantege is given to the 25% = 600lb vs 25% = 200lb.


Oh and because a plane did have bigger fuel tanks and could cary drop tanks, it should be disavantaged, vs a plane with small fuel tanks that could also cary drop tanks.

Sarcastic mode off.

It is simple, range and ability to take drop tanks should be a plane advantage. And surprisenly they are an advantage in AH.

Offline Pooface

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Wish: Please change fuel loading scheme
« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2005, 11:56:26 AM »
2 choices:

quit whining

or add some way to dump fuel load, which would be very cool HT:aok

of course HT has many things to be doing, so i think you need to go on an alcohol rehab course

Offline Wotan

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Wish: Please change fuel loading scheme
« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2005, 12:11:34 PM »
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Ahh I understand now , It is perfectly acceptible to take less fuel to help your combat weight. But taking droping tanks to help your combat weight is totaly different and unacceptible.


Back when this was debated in AH2 beta I suggested that all planes be forced to take 100% fuel as a min only.

I still believe that should be the case. But you all at HTC didn't see it that way. So what was left?

The next best suggestion is to limit DTs to 100%...

What WW2 era fighter could 'dump fuel weight' on demand? Not every engagement with the LW had the Ami's with 50% fuel or less. How many pilots flew around fighting with just  25% fuel?  

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It is simple, range and ability to take drop tanks should be a plane advantage. And surprisenly they are an advantage in AH.


It's only an advantage for one group of planes. Many planes had decent range with or with out DTs.

 If the Amis want that advantage then why can't can't they just fly 'long range' sorties? They just take off at front line fields right along with the short range front line aircraft like the La-7.

The La-7 gets limited to just 21 min combat time unless he reduces power. While the P-51 takes 25% and a DT and flies around at 100% power all the time and can 'dump weight' at the push of a button.

The only advantage to the high FBM and DTs is for Ami planes. You don't force them to fly 'longe range sorties' but force the short range planes to fly 'even shorter range'.

Offline straffo

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Wish: Please change fuel loading scheme
« Reply #29 on: September 02, 2005, 12:24:15 PM »
I was about to post something but the link I provided is availlable and is still pertinent