early war planes in AH?

[lazs]

sea... You wouldn't even have to have a seperate arena in and arena... Just, as I said, put a few filds a few sectors away from the rest in a canyon area and only allow early planes to take off from them.   Many "real life" fields only allowed certain planes as did carriers.

Any perk jerks or mid war guys that would fly 2 sectors to fight in the canyons with the early planes would be welcome so far as I'm concerned but....

You need some "sheltering" for ealy planes.  You can do it with RPS or seperate arena.  Both have proved unpopular in the past.  I do not see what your objection to my idea is.
lazs

[Effdub]

Quote: "I bet the 190 pilots went to the Allied Air Command and said "That P-51 is too damn uber...remove it now!!"

a) 190 vs P51 is not the problem Tex. If the LW pilots had to fly Me109E's in the same "arena" as the P51's I'm sure they would have kicked the german aircraft designers asses, for not being able to produce competitive planes.

b) Early warplanes for scenarios only? great... so you get nil combat experience in a (non exsistent) RPS frameset - you only get a chance to fly the bird in a scenario... oh boy.

c) What-if's vs realism. U'll never get full realism in a flightsim because "real" warfare consisted of "hours of boredom and minutes of sheer terror", as one pilot put it.

AH is FULL of what-if's for GAMEPLAY.

What if 109's fought 109's, what if there was no night - only GOOD weather, what if everyone flew with icons displaying range, what if C.202's fought Ta152's, what if you could die and come back to life... what if etc etc etc.
So basically it's a question of degrees. A matter of steps between Air quake and a tad more realism....

To me more realism IS FUN, others are content with air quake - maybe they play AH because in the real quake you only get to fly when you step on a jump pad? I dunno, really...

What I'm trying to say is: stop using the "so you want full realism? well then this and that will happen blah" argument. There can be no "full realism", I KNOW that - we are talking about degrees of gameplay features... a balance between dumbing down the game to boost the newbies ego (I can fly/kill in a Fw190 after joining the game 10 minutes ago, man why'd they take 3 months of flight training to master their planes?), and the hardcore simmers who would accept 8 hours of real time flying to bomb targets in Berlin... You can't please 'em all so you have to find a golden middle - where that golden middle is, that's what we are arguing about...

AH is a "young" sim so we'll have to hang on in there and see how it grows up. At the moment I have a feeling they don't want to go anywhere WB has been, just because WB was there, but IMO WB wasen't "all" wrong and AH isen't "all" right...

d) another favorite argument: "There are not enough ppl in AH to split them up in different arenas". hmmm, I dunno... I fly at high peak times, when there are 150 online and I fly at low peak times with 20 ppl online. I still get my fights no matter what - basically the only ppl of interest are the ones in your line of sight. I don't "see" the other 140 ppl in the arena, they are busy elsewhere, so they might as well be in another arena - they have no affect on my restricted airspace.
With low peak times I'd decide wich arena I'd join like I did in WB: Either go where everybody was (MA), or enter the HA ALONE and grab a buff. Usually someone would come by, shoot my buff down, I'd grab a fighter and we'd go 1v1, others would come in and we'd fight 1vs2, 3vs3... whatever.

WB offered a choice at least... I don't care if you guys didn't like the HA, you still had the MA. I don't care if you were pissed that ppl would choose the uber planes in the HA, thus unbalancing either allies or axis, I flew LW no matter what, adapted, and had FUN even vs allied numbers - it's not a question of the HA being matter of factly a bad idea because YOU didn't like it... it's choice that matters.

at least to me

Effdub

[lazs]

effdub.. good observations but... I don't believe that seperate arenas work well... or haven't in the past no matter what the player base.   People don't like to pull up roots and go "check out" another arena.  If they see one with 140 and one with ten...

If the early war planes were just a couple of sectors seperation from the "anything goes fields" and in an area that favored their strengths like "canyon world" then they would be isolated enough to not have to compete with the later planes but included in the arena so that people could try them with no hassle and some real advanced knowledge.... Same radar, same radios etc.  

They would be included without the problems of parity.  If no one wanted to fly em then that would of course, be another thing but no one would be forced to do anything.   I can think of no down side to this and I still want to know...

Anyone have a better idea?
lazs

[Effdub]

Lazs, your Idea is a very good one.

a) Radar could show what's going on in the different areas at a glance.
No guys flying in the early war area? ok, let's go "where the action" is - fair deal.

b) Resets only work when a certain ammount of fields (as it is now) from ALL areas are captured. Late warbird guys and early plane lovers would actually work for the same goal (reset), whilst flying their fav ride in a more even environment. Cross over guys could jump from area to area to help capture fields, defend, whatever.

Good Idea Lazs! Congrats  

[AKSeaWulfe]

 

Originally posted by lazs:
sea... You wouldn't even have to have a seperate arena in and arena... Just, as I said, put a few filds a few sectors away from the rest in a canyon area and only allow early planes to take off from them.   Many "real life" fields only allowed certain planes as did carriers.

Yer confusing AKs again lazs, I didn't comment on your idea. Although I think just making all of the fields closer together and maybe having less of them would be just as effective.
-SW

[Lephturn]

Wow MrSid, you certainly know how to generalize.  

You can post all the wishful thinking you like, but I think my post was correct in terms of why it's a better idea for HTC to do the late war, and do it fairly completely, before they expend any resources on the early war stuff.  Yep, there are always a few, myself included, who will love to fly the early war birds, but the majority will be far more likely to join AH to fly the sexy late war planes.  IMFO.  

BTW, I don't see "80-90%" N1k's and C Hogs.  I see plenty of 51's, 109's, 190's, D Hogs, Buffs, F6F's, Zekes, and even the odd 47 or C 205.  In certain situations (like a field under attack where you'll have a bunch of C hogs attacking and N1k's defending).

------------------
Lephturn - Aces High Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs  http://www.flyingpigs.com
 
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome!

"Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know." - Michel Eyquem, seigneur de Montaigne. (1533–1592)

[lazs]

sea...yer right... I have no idea why i get you two mixed up every single time.  I think that just putting the fields closer together wouldn't do much for the early rides.   It would help but it would screw with the strat game (i wouldn't care but some would).   I'm not trying to exclude anyone with this idea.  I am trying to offer MORE choice.   Choice without parity tho is really no choice at all.

Lep... I agree that late war mid war is where the player base and money is.   I don't mind that AH concentrate on em but.... I believe that my idea would add player base and variety for very little investment in time and effort and best of all..... It really shouldn't "piss anyone off" because their style of fighting/playing was being minimized... The early war planes would not be at the expense of the late war guys or the strat guys.   everyone would win.   People who normally would not like early war planes (or think they wouldn't) could try them in a very painless casual and not forced way.   No animosity.  

The only possible downside would be if too many liked the early war area and The others were being neglected.   I don't really forsee that happening do you?
lazs

[Thud]

The only option that I can come up with beside an HA or early war area is to extent the perk-system a bit.

Make the early war rides really cheap or free and lift up the costs for all planes a bit thus making older rides more attractive.

Maybe this could vary with time, so one day or week make the early planes really worthwile flying and the next period return the costs to almost the present situation. Somewhat like having the arena changing between the pacific terrain and the land warfare terrain coming up and rotating them each tour. This way you would satisfy the early ride fans with an arena in with they could compete reasonably well and the '45 fliers only have to adapt a bit at certain times.

As long as we've don't have the playerbase to have more arenas or scenarios more often this is the only way I can think of to have the older rides play a part in the MA. The only drawback is all the perkies involved, it becomes a bit of a point management game.

Just my spare change......

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Thud, the fairly mediocre pilot formerly known as Bies

[popeye]

Don't see any drawbacks to lazs' plan.  I'd even hang one of those new cloud banks over Canyon World at about 12K, to discourage stratobuffs and late war cherry pickers.

[kkoori]

Lephturn wrote:
"The early war stuff has been done to death. .

Yeah right.

ROFL  

[lazs]

thud.. I love early war planes but even I don't want to fly em in a large arena filled with mid and late war rides.   I don't think a lot of people would take kindly to a "reverse perk" system and being forced to fly em.   You need choice and parity.   Any type of perk system would remove both of those things for most people.

Pop... excellent idea on the clouds!  I really think tho that just being a couple sectors away would discourage all but the most attention starved killjoys.... I allso believe that the community reaction to their being jerks would probly discourage most normal people too.   Still... clouds would be cool... It would not take much to insulate the early war area from the other.

I have been part of a lot of experiments to get in early war planes and all have pretty much failed and caused animosity.   We need to try something completely different.  Making the same mistakes over and over is not the answer...

Let's hear some new ideas...  surely someone has an idea besides me.
lazs

[AKSeaWulfe]

The only thing I can think of is one of those gawd awful RPS things lazs, and we all know we don't want none of that here.

Hmmmm..... unless we make all front line fields being capable of launching only early war planes and the further back fields the late war rides and the fields between the front lines and the back homelands would be mid war rides.
Doubt that would work either.
-SW

[popeye]

"unless we make all front line fields being capable of launching only early war planes and the further back fields the late war rides and the fields between the front lines and the back homelands would be mid war rides."

I think this idea deserves some exploration.  (I've suggested something similar in the past.)

It could be combined with a "modified" RPS.  So that the front line fields started with very early planes, and the rear fields ended with "perkable" very late war planes.

Allow any plane to be rearmed/refueled at any field.  Also, allow "aces" with (pick a number) kill streaks to launch any currently available plane at any field.  Rewarding both safe landings and "doing well" (kill streaks).  No perk points would be needed.

Another advantage is that the most valuable strat targets would be the enemy's rear fields.  This would take some pressure off the early war furballers at forward fields.

 

 

[lazs]

Well pop.... gotta dissagree.   There would be no point in having the early rides if they  could run into mid or late war planes that they could not even damage.   Plus... I wanted to keep it simple.   Some fields for early rides only with enough seperation and early plane friendly terrain so that mid or late war planes wouldn't even bother.   No one "forced" to fly early war planes at all and early war rides insulated from the very planes that made them obsolete in real life.

I don't want a (choke) "reward" system that allows people to club early war planes with latter ones.  No one would even bother to go up in an early ride if they could expect to fight 10-50% later planes.   If there were any type of RPS the P51 guys would have a hissy fit.   choosing between dieing in an early plane and just taking off in a latter plane from another field is no choice at all.  Early war planes against later ones is no parity at all.

How do we get to fly early war planes against other early war planes in the arena?   I can't think of any way other than I have described.
lazs

[Kratzer]

I think the idea of having a piece of the 'front' that was removed enough for early war AC to be feasible would be good.

However, I think the big draw for early war aircraft will be for scenarios.