Luckyday wrote this:
It seems to me that "free" thinkers who are supposedly open minded have closed their minds to any ideas which contradict their own, regardless of evidence or truth.
Then my friend you have either misunderstood the word freethinker, or are using a different definition than I am
This creates a religion or ideology based only on what a person chooses to believe, rather than a belief system based on truth and historical evidence.
Hm, I'd say I have no religion or ideology. Claiming non theism is a religion is like claiming bald is a hair colour. The ideology I come closest to adhering to would be hedonism, i.e the pursuit of pleasure as an ethical principle, with the golden rule applying, of course.
I am not sure which belief you refer to as truth and "historical evidence", but I gather it is Christianity. To me, it is a valid belief. As is all other religious beliefs, including Asatru and belief in the Invisible Pink Unicorn. But, the fact of the matter is many beliefs are based on on faith, and faith is belief in that which is not proven or belief in something despite available evidence pointing to the contrary. I am not a fan of faith, as it is a cheap crutch, a shortcut and intellectually dishonest. To me, that is. For others, it is rewarding, gives a sense of security and provide answers in areas of life where answers are hard to get to. With "intellectual dishonest" I mean that I cannot get myself to have faith in anything - it just feels like I am lying to myself. Yes, I have hopes and expectations, but not religious faith. When I go skydive, I expect the main to fail and hope the reserve will save my butt. I do not have faith it will; I just hope for it.
Not every "religious" person is like the television evangelists or the medieval priests and bishops that try to sell you
"salvation". I would say that most of us are doing our best to live as Christ, and failing miserably. But we are trying.
Thank god for that. The thing that is a little saddening to me, however, is that the Christian mythology seem to emphazise how lowly and unworthy we are as humans - how far we fall short. I'm an optimist and elect to see the positive side
.
Please do some research for yourself rather than repeating rhetoric you cling to because it is convenient and guilt-free.
My lack of beliefs are anything
but convenient and guilt free. I have no answers premade for me; on each and every moral and ethical matter, I must trust my own judgement. I must as good as I can weight all the available evidence and compare it to a personal moral that is continually worked upon. Each and every time something new comes up, I must be ready to admit my mistakes and integrate the new knowledge into how I see the world, or destroy the old way of seeing things. There is no sweet afterlife to me; this is a pity, as I have the same fear of not living the Christian has. Just a consequence of evolution no amount of intellectualizing can change. When a loved one is hurt or dies, I cannot be comforted by the idea that he or she is in a better place. Nor is there real justice; it is a concept that needs to be worked towards, but there is no great book which keeps the balance. I could go on, but you get the picture. It is quite a bleak world, unless you, as the current generation of emerging non theists, have a positive outlook on life and humanity as a whole. Luckily, lately I have had just that.
You choose answers and strict rules to live and measure your "success" by. The alternative, unexamined as it is, is just as hard. Not as restrictive, but just as hard.
To save you some time, look for any book by Josh McDowell, Hank Hannegraff, or C.S. Lewis; and read with an open mind. Each of these are well educated men who have searched for themselves and found that the Bible stands up to vicious scrutiny.
I've read two of those writers, McDowell and Lewis. But I find it logical that Christians will find the bible to be true - after all, Christian belief states that the bible is the work of god
.
Or go the whole nine yards and learn ancient Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic, learn the history and culture of the areas where the Bible originated, and then decide what you believe.
Well, the translated versions are close enough for me to get a gist of what they're talking about.
Go to a local church and ask the pastor whose research he respects and check it out for yourself. Go to a university and ask a history/psychology/religion professor for their opinions and what Christians in their field they respect and why.
The latter I have done. There is quite a number of books out there about the psychology of Christianity. However, most aren't seen upon kindly with the eyes of conservative Christians.
Do your own "free" thinking.
Way ahead of ya bud
.
(I suppose a "flames of hell" joke wouldn't work here... even if it had a smiley? )
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Heh, any deity that had the nerve to create the universe as it is, and then not help a poor critter out would not get my help, even with free will. Besides, Hell is a place in Norway. (Image removed from quote.)
Udie, as far as evolution goes, it's just change of allele frequency in a population over time. It can actually be seen in bacteria with very short life span. http://www.talkorigins.org has lots of info on it. Alternatively, any book by Richard Dawkins is a delight to read.
Not saying this is the way it is; just saying that available scientific evidence points very strongly in this direction. Of course, we could stay up all night arguing about the precision of science and the tenets it rests upon.
Cabby: you're right. Since I like discussions, where progress is actually made rather than arguments where both side vehemently stick to their guns, I have no further reply to you. Other than lighten up dude, stop being so cynical and take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth. Ye call blur and me liars without even knowing us. We've grown up in different cultures but come to the same conclusions about certain issues, but to you that is brainwashing and BS. Must be the New World Order.
Geesh, I respect Christians as people. I just find the Christian belief rather unlikely personally. Separate the religious beliefs from the man is one of the keys to some kind stable relationship where respect can be found.
Heh, this is just my kind of thread. Wish I had more time to reply, but I have to go to Sweden in about five minutes.
Will write really long responses when I get back (Image removed from quote.)
Btw, there are left wing extremists. We call them commie bastards (Image removed from quote.)
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
