Author Topic: Affirmative action pls  (Read 1586 times)

Offline Knegel

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Affirmative action pls
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2005, 03:30:51 AM »
He he,

i would be happy if my beloved A8 would get its smal drag(not only smal lift), so i would be able to outaccelerate the SpitV and IX in a dive. ;)

1800HP, the high weight and this smal wings should do the job in a dive and the following upzoom. :D

Who care what the FM makers tell about the used specs? Important is a credible AND playable result.

Realy, can anyone get happy with the , Ki84, La7, Temp or Spit5??  Or with the funny US combatflaps, which let them turn better than anything else, of course without to bleed energy like mad?? Or with the 109´s, which dont stop to accelerate in a dive, even with dead eng?

I would like to see a more credible 'induced drag, zero drag, inertia and thrust calculation' all over, instead of new planes.

Of course its dreaming too. :)


Greetings, Knegel

Offline Kev367th

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Re: Affirmative action pls
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2005, 05:00:07 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by 1K3
For example

IF Spitfire 14 gets +21 boost and Spitfire 16 gets +25 boost, can 109K-4 get   the 1.98 ata boost and as a bonus - an upgraded BMW 801 engine for 190A-8?

:D


Spit 14 operated at 21lbs starting late 1944, earliest Spit 16 at 25lbs was May 1944.
Spit 14 is getting redone at 21lbs according to Pyro, the 16 is coming in at 18lbs because he's worried about its climb rate.

Documents form both sqn level and the Ministry of Defence prove the boost levels.

As for the 109K4 - Anything I have ever seen shows a few 109-G10s used 1.98ata Jan 1945 for operational testing only. Anything posted on 1.98ata use by the K4 relies on personal: "we can suppose", "we can assume", "its a fair guess" etc.
In fact a doc I dug up clearly shows Mar/Apr 1945 109K4 were not using the fuel required for 1.98ata.
Same goes for flettners - Yes there are pics of K4 with flettners, not one actually shows the operating actuator fitted, in fact they were locked down and unusable.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2005, 05:02:32 AM by Kev367th »
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Offline Bronk

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Affirmative action pls
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2005, 02:46:43 PM »
Hijack
  Not to turn this into a spit XII thread . Why wouldn't HTC model this spit variant ?  It just seems to me that even perked this aircraft was made for MA play style. If it were my decision drop the XVI and make the XII . Before the whine starts about how rare a bird it was.  More spt XII seen combat than 3 gun La7s. Also they were operational in 43. Just my 2 cents



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Offline Karnak

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« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2005, 03:02:35 PM »
Bronk,

We need a Spitfire LF.Mk IXe or LF.Mk XVI to cover ToD in the later stages of the war.  The 1942 F.Mk IX we have is horribly out classed in anything other than a brawl.

The Mk XII, while it did see heavy combat, only had 120 examples built.  That is lower than the C.205 or N1K2-J or the three gun La-7.
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Offline Bronk

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« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2005, 03:41:24 PM »
Karnak
 How does the spit XVI compare to the XII and FW 190 A8.


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Offline Knegel

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« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2005, 01:51:53 AM »
Hey, the current SpitIXc is already more than a match for the FW190A8, the 190A8 only can hit and run, a real combat is almost impossible. The current Spit climb better, have a better upzoom, very similar diveacceleration and keep energy like hell while turning(it should be the other way around at medium to highspeed). This shal be a 1942 SpitIXc with merlin61?? The SpitV, some like other planes with smal wingload, is even more funny regarding the energy bleed, specialy at highspeed and tight turns. Looks to me that the AH FM makers dont know that a smal Liftload not only let a plane turn more tight, but at same time it bleed energy like mad. In Ah its like this: Smal wingload = great vertical upzoom and smal E-bleed while turning and climbing.
No wonder that the FM makers start to worry about incredible good climbrations of some planes, if they dont get the drag calculations right.  
As result the Spit14 is in most aspects more bad than the Spit5. I guess there isnt a Spit5 at all, its a simple dotbug and its a SpitIXc with merlin66. lol

btw, i dont wont better 190A´s, i like the challenge to fly it, but better Spits would make the 190A´s senceless, its already hard enough.

Greetings,

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2005, 10:01:49 AM »
Knegel,

A)Saying "Spit IXc" does not tell us much about it as it could be a Merlin 61, Merlin 63 at 15 or 21lbs, Merlin 66 at 18 or 25lbs boost.  It is a Spitfire F.Mk IX using a Merlin 61 at +15lbs boost.  It is completely outclassed by the Fw190A-8 and later if those aircraft are flown to their strengths.  The Bf109G-14 will probably be added as well giving a better Bf109 to play with too.

B) The Spitfire Mk Vb is being reduced in boost from +16lbs to +12lbs.

Bronk,

The Spitfire LF.Mk XVI at +18lbs boost should have a top speed of about 404mph around 20,000ft and a top sea level speed of 335mph or so.  It will have clipped wings, so it will roll a bit better than current Spits, but give up a bit in terms of turning radius.  Climb rate should be above 4,000fpm initially.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2005, 10:08:32 AM by Karnak »
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Offline Squire

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Affirmative action pls
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2005, 10:38:16 PM »
I think HTC will be fair and reasonable. I wouldnt get too worked up about it, we dont even know for sure what the new varients will be yet. So far its a lot of "best guesses".

Lets see what we end up with.
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Offline Krusty

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« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2005, 12:05:13 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
It is a Spitfire F.Mk IX using a Merlin 61 at +15lbs boost.  It is completely outclassed by the Fw190A-8 and later if those aircraft are flown to their strengths.


The two planes have almost the same top speed. They trade a few MPH for one or the other, then swap about a thousand feet above that best speed alt. The Spit9 (the one we have) handles far better, can turn infinitely tighter, can climb like the wind itself is lifting it into the air, is very user friendly, and dives/accelerates, as has been mentioned, too well. The A8 has... um... Well it can't tun under 150mph.. It.. um.. Climbs like crap. It.. uh... mm... has a lotta WEP! It has great roll for evasives, but trust me this plane NEEDS to be evasive.

Not to pick on you Karnak :)

I just think a LOT of people disagree that there is no contender for the 190As in AH right now. Spit9 has them beat hands down in most areas, and in the areas it doesn't the 190a8 and spit9 are nearly equal (speed dive and acceleration).

Offline straffo

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« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2005, 03:42:44 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Knegel
Hey, the current SpitIXc is already more than a match for the FW190A8, the 190A8 only can hit and run

yep and so ?
 
Quote
 a real combat is almost impossible.  [/B]

hmmm what is a real combats so ?*

 
Quote
The current Spit climb better, have a better upzoom, very similar diveacceleration and keep energy like hell while turning(it should be the other way around at medium to highspeed).  [/B]

If you can handle the spit capablities disengage at the 1st opportunity.

 
Quote
Looks to me that the AH FM makers dont know that a smal Liftload not only let a plane turn more tight, but at same time it bleed energy like mad.  [/B]

huu ??
Why are you restricting things to the sole liftload ,don't you think other factors have influence ?



* btw I think you are a spit pilot dressed in a LW fan uniform.

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2005, 01:25:28 PM »
Krusty,

That is true up higher.  I guess I think a lot in terms of the  AH MA where the fights are down low.  The 350+mph that the A-8 does on the deck is much better than the 321mph the Spit F.IX does on the deck.  Once you get high though the F.IX really comes into it's own.  The RAF found that fights weren't really happening up there though, hence the low tuned Merlin 66 powered LF series.
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Offline Krusty

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« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2005, 06:30:19 PM »
Well, true, but the MA doesn't count because 50% of the other planes out there can still beat the 190A8. Ponies, doras, typhies, lavochkins...

Comparing the 190s to the spitfires only works in the context of historical matches (such as events, Combat Theater, or the new upcoming TOD). In these instances, where the context applies, I believe you will find more historical altitudes for fights.

I have an old file "AH_Plane_Cheat_Sheet.txt" and I forgot who put it together, but I think all the speeds are still the same.


Plane Low_Cruise High-Cruise SL Speed (w/n) Alt/Top-Speed
------- ---------- ----------- ------------- -------------
Spitfire Mk IX 376@15K 390@27K 319/310 405@26K

Fw 190A-8 347@5K 375@20K 349/327 400@19.5K


Yes 30mph can mean the difference in escaping or not escaping. However I think the spit9 holds the cards in a fight A8 vs Spit9 (current AH settings).

EDIT: Those "cruise" notes are just estimation. This is before the E6B and the cruise settings were around (from Ah1 days)

Offline Squire

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« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2005, 09:57:55 PM »
"The Spit9 (the one we have) handles far better, can turn infinitely tighter, can climb like the wind itself is lifting it into the air, is very user friendly, and dives/accelerates, as has been mentioned, too well."

-This basically boils down to the same stuff as before, claiming its overmodelled, but providing no real proof. I guess the Spit is never supposed to do anything better than . I have been reading these threads since Air Warrior.

"Who care what the FM makers tell about the used specs? Important is a credible AND playable result."

"Looks to me that the AH FM makers dont know that a smal Liftload not only let a plane turn more tight, but at same time it bleed energy like mad."


-This is what happens when somebody gets a hold of some aerodynamic "theory" and starts bastardizing it to suit some conspiracy theory.

Sustained turns:

-Wings that "out turn" other wings are the ones that bleed energy less, not more.  A 190 and Spitfire both have the exact same turn rate at any given G load, the a/c that loses energy (airspeed) the slowest in a 5G turn, will be able to sustain that 5G turn the longest, without reducing to a 4G turn. So, claiming the Spit is "supposed to turn well but bleed E like mad" is simply not correct. It either turns better and has a better E retention (loses less speed in the turn) or it turns worse and has a worse E retention (loses more speed in the turn).  

-Fighters dont "out turn" each other (thats the laymans term we all use), they "out conserve energy" each other. The fighter with the poorer E retention, must reduce its G load 1st, to avoid losing more airspeed than its opponent.  Doing that however enables the other fighter to sustain a harder, higher G turn, and thus it is eventually defeated.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2005, 10:00:03 PM by Squire »
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Offline Krusty

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« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2005, 11:41:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Squire
"The Spit9 (the one we have) handles far better, can turn infinitely tighter, can climb like the wind itself is lifting it into the air, is very user friendly, and dives/accelerates, as has been mentioned, too well."


Whether or not it's "overmodeled" as you state is not the point. It exists. Period. It is a flight model. Period. It just *is* modeled that way. Don't give a rat's bellybutton why, but it is. Like I said, the spit9 we have NOW, in AH2 NOW, beats the 190A8 we have NOW, in AH2 NOW. Don't go making me sound like I've got some anti-Spit agenda. I was talking balance in historical matchups in a game, not talking about realistic modeling. I'll limit my "realistic modeling" posting to threads regarding that topic, if I can help it :)

Offline Squire

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« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2005, 12:25:04 AM »
Post by IK3, quotes by Knegel.

I never said didly about your post, so relax.
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