Lithuania: NATO membership = ignoring international agreements?

[VILKAS]

See Rule #4

[VILKAS]

Originally posted by Lizard3
See Rule #4

Oh yes !....To every story, there are 3 sides, that was what my teacher used to say so many years ago.

"Your side. my side and the truth !!"

I would not do that even to an enemy, let alone a friend, but it is a good thought !

[Boroda]

Originally posted by VILKAS
Hi Boroda
No you did not offend me, it is hard to offend someone that is pushing 76th year!
I can not agree or disagree with you where Vassiliy Stalin is put to rest !...As a matter of fact, I read that both of us can be correct!
As I stated before, the cemetery in my hometown Lithuania, on the monument dedicated to the Russian soldiers, states (if I can remember)...." Here Vassiliy Stalin, son of Josef Stalin, fighter pilot, is put to rest among brave Russian sodiers, we thank them for their sacriface...my they rest in pease"....

V. I. Stalin is buried in Kazan', in "exile", he was prohibited to live in central cities after he got out of prison. Maybe there is a grave of some other pilot from Politburo families? Or maybe it's Yakov Dzhugashvili? I don't know if Germans buried him or just burned the body...

Originally posted by VILKAS
As for small Lithuania, being an enemy to the large country Russia, ...... maybe to some!..but not to me.. if not for nice Russian Officers, my father would have died somewere in the North of Russia...the other side of Ural mountains !

Therefore Boroda....as far as I am...U R a friend...like it or not !!!

I'd like to think that you are my friend too, I don't think that any political or historical conflicts matter much in personal relations. I don't think of anyone here as of an "enemy". I think it's obvious.

My opinion is that there are some powers who need us to be enemies. Their main tool is lie and nationalistic feelings.

You are an aged man, and it deserves a lot of respect. My Father is 78 now, and he also uses computers and Internet, it's hard to believe that he learned to read under a kerosene lamp...

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Lizard3
I think Boroda needs to take a Korean airliner full of civilians shot down over Kamchatka and shove them so far up his bellybutton his hair cries.

Thanks. I'll pass it right to CIA and Toad's employers, who thought that using a civilian aircraft as a recon target is a good idea, and followed it with RC-135s, also having spy-sattelites over it when it was in PVO areas. As Toad said they were only "plotting ingress routes"

All this story is as dirty and stinks as a pigsty. Unfortunately the provocation was successfull, but still noone knows who shot down whom...

[Squire]

"I think that an adequate answer to hostile actions of Lithuanian and NATO authorities had to be a bomb/missile strike to destroy the wreck that was in enemy hands."

Ya, bombing the crater would fix everything, and risking a war over a single crashed fighter thats already in 10,000 peices makes so much sense.  

[Fishu]

Originally posted by Boroda
Thanks. I'll pass it right to CIA and Toad's employers, who thought that using a civilian aircraft as a recon target is a good idea, and followed it with RC-135s, also having spy-sattelites over it when it was in PVO areas. As Toad said they were only "plotting ingress routes"

Of course in situations like this you don't use fighters to intercept them visually and then make sure the RC-135 gets shot down instead of the civilian aircraft.
Amazingly the RC-135 survived without a scratch...    where was the intercept fighters?
Usually you hear about such planes first getting intercepted visually by a fighter.

And whats the story with the swedish plane, that was shot down over international waters?
Spying soviet intrests over the "soviet international waters", eh?

[Wolfala]

See Rule #5, #4

[Lazerus]

Originally posted by Fishu
I dont know of the origins of Lithuanian swastika.

What comes to the finnish Waffen-SS "volunteers", they were purely part of a combat unit and did not take part into the attrocities.
Besides that SS and Waffen-SS are different organizations.

Ya had me.....

Originally posted by Fishu
The hypocrit jews

...ya lost me.

It is a shame how they tattoo palistinians that invaded their country the way Germans tattooed Jews that did the same.

I think those hypocrit Fins are really the problem with the world today. If only we could get rid of em all, things would be much better. Not all Fins, just the hypocrits.

[~Caligula~]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Fishu
I dont know of the origins of Lithuanian swastika.

What comes to the finnish Waffen-SS "volunteers", they were purely part of a combat unit and did not take part into the attrocities.
Besides that SS and Waffen-SS are different organizations.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


As far as I know Oradour was the work of the Waffen-SS.And by that time it was full of non-germans (the SS). Did  they order all voulunteers on lunch-break, while the true germans kill everyone and torch the town?

[Toad]

The Su-27 was on a "planned route over Lithuania". It was being shadowed by 6 Russian spy planes as closely as possilbe. It suffered from a faked accident while Russian spy-satellites watched it and recorded the Lithuanian response. This is all in preparation for the coming Russian invasion of Lithuania.

[Fishu]

Originally posted by ~Caligula~
As far as I know Oradour was the work of the Waffen-SS.And by that time it was full of non-germans (the SS). Did  they order all voulunteers on lunch-break, while the true germans kill everyone and torch the town?

I never claimed that foreigners or the Waffen-SS didn't take part in the massacres at all during the war.
What I've said, is: the finnish volunteers in Waffen-SS didn't take part in genocides and main function of Waffen-SS was to combat at the frontline.
Massacres by Waffen-SS should be rather isolated cases and probably more related to certain units.

However I wouldn't go too critical on the whole history of Waffen-SS based on isolated incidents, mainly in the last phase of the war, when the ranks of Waffen-SS were totally F'ed up.

Along the war theres also some well proven cases where Waffen-SS soldiers killed surrendered enemy soldiers, but I don't really know any army that didn't, more or less.


Do you have more information on that where from the recruited soldiers were, other than just "foreign"?
I know that at least polish volunteers were renown for brutality, but as I recall they were that in the SS.

[VILKAS]

Originally posted by OttoJ

100% agreement !.....Is it not better to talk about something we know!....instead to say things that only few higher-ups know for sure !?

At WW2 beginning, Waffen SS were the "Mop-up Gang"  very brutal, they stayed 1 to 2 days behind the front, and got rid of everything and anyone, they thought should be get rid of.

 Near the end of the war, anyone that was able to walk, even agaist their will, was put into Waffen SS, young and old alike.....war does very strange things to people!!!!..we can see that happening even now...can we not?......

Many wounds have been healed by now, but some of us keep on scraching, till blood comes again to the surface....Should we not do things, to make shure that something like that never happens again ........Now that we experts know what realy happened.., do we?....

_____________________________ _______________________
"Good judgement comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad"

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Squire
Ya, bombing the crater would fix everything, and risking a war over a single crashed fighter thats already in 10,000 peices makes so much sense.  

Lithuanian airforce commander in chief (former Soviet fighter pilot, who else he could be?) already got fired because he informed his Russian colleagues about the "friend or foe" answerer that is in enemy hands. At least it's what Lithuanian press said as a most possible version.

Again, the on-board elecronics and fire control systems of the Soviet (er, Russian) Su-27 is very much different from export version.

NATO "anti-aircraft defence" in Lithuania prooved to be absolutely ineffective. Famous German pilots didn't take off until the invading plane crashed. The plane was from the very beginning known to be a combat plane, not a civilian plane by any means. This inability to do anything to protect Lithuanian airspace gives you one clear answer to a question why NATO is there.

We don't need war. But I think that we must show the enemy that we are ready to answer. In this gamble of aggressive actions we don't bluff. Unfortunately, so-called "Baltic republics" don't understand that instead of protection they get dangerous provocators who don't care to write them off in case of war, like pawns.

I have to wonder again: and this people wanted to have a war with us. Like kids. Now they are within several minutes of flight from Leningrad, er, SPb.

I think it's hard to understand what I said for the people who don't have enemy forces within artillery fire range from their major population centers and who never had the enemy dropping bombs upon their homes and starving millions in sieged cities.

Funny thing: there was an official report of NATO airforce in Estonia (another limitroph, an aggressive cavenen anti-Russian SS adoring EU/NATO member), "F-16 fighter can't reach it's top speed in Estonian airspace". Guess why? Estonia is simply too damn small for it to accelerate. In Riga, Latvia there was a panic when they heard a sonic boom from NATO planes "patrolling" their airspace. Can you imagine it: there were no supersomic flights over Latvia since 1991. They forgot sonic booms! They probably wonder why planes fly without waving wings like birds.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by VILKAS
Near the end of the war, anyone that was able to walk, even agaist their will, was put into Waffen SS, young and old alike.....war does very strange things to people!!!!..we can see that happening even now...can we not?......

There was an interesting thing in Latvian SS "veterans" interviews: they said that they joined SS because they offered free booze, unlike other recruiters... They are probably proud now - they are all national heros. Hangman jobs payed quite well after 60 years

In Lithuania, as I read in many sources, there was never a big support for nazis, so they probably had to catch everyone who had even number of hands and legs... AFAIK there were some Jews left in Lithuania when Red Army came back. In Riga when our forces returned there were 18 (eighteen) Jews left. Hidden by partisans, who get sentenced for their activities now, while SS hangmen march on parades

[Estel]

Originally posted by Wolfala

Hmmmm. You are doing great successings in russian understanding of world.
Now you are to begin learning of how to use russian worse words and drinking vodka as we do.