Are Americans really ready for "WAR"??

[john9001]

but , ispar....who will save you from the bad guys?

ok guys , lets all hold hands and sing hare krishina....la la na na   la la na na
you too binladen, join in

[easymo]

Is it true that ispar means camel dung in Arabic?

[AKIron]

Ispar; I find it odd that someone with such strong antiwar sentiments would engage in an activity (even though only a game) thats purpose is to recreate WWII. How do you reconcile the two?

[Eagler]

ispar, ispar, ispar .... I think you should volunteer for U.S. Ambassador to Afghanistan and discuss your point of view with those nice people I see spitting, ripping & burning the American flag in the streets there. I'm sure they'd understand you perfectly.. Well at least it'd make for about 90 seconds of interesting television.

Do you pet rabid dogs too?

[Toad]

Sleep well tonight, Ispar.

Far, far better men than yourself are exerting themselves to make and keep you free and unharmed in your bed.

Enjoy the gift of their sacrifice without guilt. They give it to you without being asked to do so.

[Maverick]

Gents.,

I have one possible observation to make regarding Ispar's post. There have been many men, and I do mean MEN, who rejected war and fighting. They are generally from the Quaker faith. I respect these men as they did not shirk duty in the military during warfare. They often were medics and displayed some of the highest levels of courage ever witnessed.

Having said that, if Ispar is saying he doesn't like war and fighting on those grounds I respect him. I also think he would be willing to serve in a non combat role such as medic.

If, on the other hand Ispar is simply shirking his responsibility to a free society by preserving and supporting it I think he is beneath contempt. No man, or woman, that enjoys the fruits of a free society should hold themselves above serving it and keeping it safe. If you cannot see that then you are seriously deficient in the understanding of responsibility and citizenship.

In simple terms, when faced with an adversary that is bent on your destruction for their own reasons and is not going to listen to anything but your death rattle, your only option is to fight if you want to live. The same goes for the safety and lives of your family. You can either live as men or die like animals led to slaughter.

A free society such as ours carries the highest price for maintaining it. Others will try to take it away and only your willingness to stand and fight will see it maintained in the future.

Mav

[ 09-22-2001: Message edited by: Maverick ]

[easymo]

Camel dung made it obvious, in my MTV thread, that his problem was based more on a lack of balls, then any love for humanity.  This renders his opinion of anything useless.

  Maybe a gut check is in order for the rest of us.

  During desert storm, the Israelis did one of the most amazing things I have witnessed in my life.  They ALLOWED themselves to be bombed without responding.  This meant investing there total faith in us, and our ISLAMIC allies.  Now that we know what it feels like to bombed.  It is even harder to imagine the kind  of discipline, and guts those people have.  I hope, and belive, that we can live up to their standard.

[Sandman]

You guys need to get over yourselves.

Ispar... stand by your beliefs. Freedom of thought is also what this country is about.

[Fury]

To what Eagler said, sometimes I think the media in this country treat me like a kid.  Like they need to "protect" me by not showing things that are very terrible to see.  Some time last week I heard a bit on the radio where they were talking about a local TV channel in New York showing people jumping from the WTC building and basically asking them to "justify" showing the pictures.  The lady from the TV station said something to the effect that the initial decision was not even made, since the footage was coming in so fast in real-time.  After that, they only showed a single shot one or two times 'at appropriate moments'.  

Then I flip past Univision on cable and I kid you not, they had one segment where they showed between 5 and 10 different people plunging all the way to the bottom.

Why does the American media think they need to shelter it's citizens?  I wonder how the world's media covered this part of the story?  Yes, it's shocking to watch, it's horrible, and to tell you the truth watching 10 different shots was a little much, but in this case I don't think it's "sensationalism" to cover the whole story.  This toejam really happened, it was not a movie.  Sensationalistic journalism for the sake of ratings is one thing, but all I need is a few non-candy-coated "reminders" of what is *really* going on down there.

One of the worst things that can happen now is for resolve to dwindle as time passes, especially if certain things are kept top secret for 20 years.  I keep hearing how some Special Ops missions are never revealed, even in success.  I hope we can all keep the same resolve we have now over the next 5 years.

[Sandman]

I think it was on the Discovery Channel or possibly TLC that I saw a show about modern special forces and covert ops.

They interviewed a General and I can't recall his name, but he questioned the use of covert ops at all against a country we are not at war with. In his opinion, it made little sense to send our troops into an action if the government didn't feel strongly enough about it that they needed to maintain deniability for political reasons.

[ispar]

Maverick, you hit the nail there. It is difficult to take this stance here, but it is what I believe. And yes, I would willingly do whatever I can to help alleviate suffering and war. I do not shirk responsibility, and I am not a coward. Being opposed to all war is not automatically inclusive of the two above. And I am seriously considering service in the American Friends Service Committee or Peace Corps when the time comes - a field role. I do feel a definite responsibility to help in any way I can, without supporting a war.

easymo, it is so easy for you to make these character judgements. You have never met me. You clearly do not understand my position. I am totally opposed to war. But that does not mean that in the event of a war I am not willing to do whatever I can to alleviate the suffering and help rebuild the lives of those affected by it. That includes being in the line of fire. It is not solely my life that is in danger, and my responsibility as a person demands I do whatever I can to help those others.

Iron, as to your question... military history fascinates me. The only way to prevent it in the future is to understand the past. I love WWII aircraft.

Additionally, there's something about violence and the human psyche. It gives us a certain thrill. It's fun! I find it fun - don't you? I enjoy flight sims, I enjoy first-person shooters, I enjoy strategy games, and so on. Most all of the games I like contain violence in some form or other.

However, I make a definite distinction between games and real life. Games are most definitely not anything like the real thing. They are fun, and there are no consequences. People are not getting killed. Nothing is getting killed. No one is starving, no one has to endure racism, no one has to live under an oppressive government like the Teliban. There is a strong distinction between games and reality. Same goes for action movies. Clear?

Thanks Sandman  .
S!

[AKIron]

Ispar; I don't think you understand your basic nature. If/when the ship hits the sand I think you may find that you are a closet warrior.

[ispar]

Originally posted by AKIron:
Ispar; I don't think you understand your basic nature. If/when the ship hits the sand I think you may find that you are a closet warrior.

No, I think you don't understand me. I know and understand human nature when it comes to this. I understand the want to fight, because I feel it all the time. Despite this, I believe that to do so is not the correct choice, except in personal self-defense when there is absolutely no other option (which is why I have mixed feelings about this. I know that a war is inevitable here, and that we may have no choice. But fighting will do us no more good than not fighting. It's a catch 22, and I would hate to be in Bush's position).

One of the reasons I oppose war and will refuse to participate is not because I cannot kill another human being, but because I can. That scares me.

[ 09-22-2001: Message edited by: ispar ]

[mrfish]

of course we're ready for a war, americans love war. the ones who want it the most are the ones with the big ominous statements and scaaaaary warnings.

instead of being coy and saying "well i sure don't hope we have a war, but if we do we're gonna kick soma bellybutton god bless em"

just say what you mean "yeah, my life is kinda boring and a war sure would break the monotony..."

[easymo]

Camel dung.  I have seen intellectual gymnastics like yours before. Anything to stay out of the fight.

  FWIW. In that old war, the consciences objectors that served as medics were my brothers.

  The men that went to jail for their beliefs have my respect.

  The ones that split for Canada, and elsewhere, by definition ran away.  They are cowards.