109 units France/Germany 1943

[Squire]

I have to say I thought they would have had more, but after looking at the OOBs it really seems the Fw190 was far and away the more numerous.

From Wotans OOB of the LW May 1943 on the TOD board:

French based 109s:

10(Jabo)/JG2- 1 109F-2, 4 109E-7, 11 109F-4.

11/JG2- 15 109G-3.

12/JG2- 16 109G-6.

German/Denmark based 109s:

1/JG3- 26 109F-4s.

11/JGII- 5 109G-1, 13 109G-1/R2, 1 109G-3, 23 109G-6.

1/JG27- 34 109F-4

III/JG54- 29 109F-4

Sources from: http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/bjagd.htm

Was there a policy to deploy the Fw190 mainly vs the RAF and USAAF? there was certainly no shortage of 109s on the Eastern Front or the Med...

[1K3]

There's still 109F-4s in service in 1943?

I thought they were all but phased out before the start of 1943...

[Bruno]

Must be a mis-read, those should be G-4s...

example

May '43 (5.43) -

I./JG 3 - 26 109G-4

III./JG 54 - 21 G-4s, 11 G-6s

I./JG 27 - 29 G-4s, 9 G-6s

10(Jabo)./JG 2 - 3 FW 190A-3/U7, 3 FW 190A-5

Either that or he read the date wrong...

[Squire]

Ya I read it 42, not 43.

The # of 109s is still surprisingly low though, 26 in France to 205 Fw190s in France.

Struck me as odd. I just thought there were more than that.

[Bruno]

Only briefly, for example read on for II./JG 2 they stayed in 109s after a brief stint in 190s.

Same with III./JG 26

III./JG 54 went 190 - 109 - 190

Most of the '190 Geschwaders' had a '109' gruppe. Look at III./JG51 (Ostfront but just as fyi) the transitioned back to the 109 in 4.44.

But yes in West '43 it was basically FWs holding the line. Some say its because of bombers but for example JG26 and JG2 transitioned to FWs well before Ami heavies were over flying the continent.

[Krusty]

While 109s had a hard time (nearly even match) against the spitfires, the SpitV gave the LW a real problem in the air. Enter the 190, which gave the RAF in their spitVs a real problem in the air. "Hrm... the SpitV is better than our 109s, but our 190 is better than the spitV, move all the 190s here, have them kill allthe spitVs" something like that.

[MiloMorai]

The West
Unit Aircraft Total Svcble  
Luftflotte 3  
Stab/JG 2 Fw 190A 4 4  
I/JG 2 40 40  
II/JG 2 24 18  
III/JG 2 40 37  
10. (Jabo)/JG 2 Bf 109 13 8  
11. /JG 2 14 9  
12./JG 2 15 12  
Stab/JG 26 Fw 190A 4 4  
II/JG 26 40 40  
III/JG 26 40 35  
11. (Jabo)/JG 54 16 9  
Stab/SKG 10 6 6  
I/SKG 10 42 42  
II/SKG 10 40 38  
IV/SKG 10 30 23  
Stab/KG 2 Do 217E/K 2 2  
I/KG 2 Do 217E/K/M 21 8  
II/KG 2 Do 217E/K 26 26  
Me 410 9 3  
III/KG 2 Do 217K 18 17  
Stab/KG 40 He 177A 1 0  
II/KG 40 Do 217K 21 19  
V/KG 40 Ju 88C 37 28  
I/KG 66 Do 217 23 7  
Korps Transport Staffel LeO 451 6 1  
Note: Balke's KG 2 history shows no Me 410s assigned to II/KG 2 in May '43.  


Germany and Denmark
Unit Aircraft Total Svcble  
Luftwaffenbefehlshaber Mitte  
Stab/JG 1 Fw 190A 3 1  
I/JG 1 31 27  
Bf 109G 7 0  
II/JG 1 Fw 190A 39 31  
Stab/JG 3 Bf 109G 3 3  
I/JG 3 40 17  
I/JG 11 Fw 190A 40 27  
II/JG 11 Bf 109G 54 27  
I/JG 27 37 24  
III/JG 54 45 41  
Stab/NJG 1 Bf 110 4 4  
I/NJG 1 27 20  
Do 215B 1 0  
II/NJG 1 Bf 110 26 17  
Do 217 6 3  
III/NJG 1 Bf 110 23 20  
IV/NJG 1 22 16  
Do 215B 2 2  
Stab/NJG 3 Bf 110 2 2  
I/NJG 3 11 11  
Do 217 11 9  
II/NJG 3 29 20  
III/NJG 3 Bf 110 23 18  
IV/NJG 3 Ju 88C 25 22  
Stab/NJG 4 Bf 110 1 1  
I/NJG 4 22 19  
Do 217 11 8  
II/NJG 4 Bf 110 22 20  
Do 217 11 11  
III/NJG 4 Bf 110 24 22  
Do 217 6 5  
IV/NJG 4 Bf 110 23 23  
Do 217 3 3  
Stab/NJG 5 Bf 110 2 1  
I/NJG 5 26 26  
II/NJG 5 19 17  
Do 217 2 1  
IV/NJG 5 Bf 110 18 18  
Ju 88C 15 11  
I/KG 3 Ju 88A 37 29  
I/KG 6 31 21  
II/KG 6 20 15  
III/KG 6 34 28  
I/KG 26 He 111H 19 10  
II/KG 27 37 28  
I/KG 40 He 177A 12 10  
Fw 200C 6 1  
III/KG 40 He 177A 12 12  
Fw 200C 11 2  
I/KG 50 He 177A 29 4  
II/KG 53 He 111H 13 0  
II/KG 76 Ju 88A 5 3  
II/KG 100 Do 217 37 0  
III/KG 100 35 11  
I/TG 1 Ju 52 22 16  
II/TG 1 49 34  
II/TG 2 20 8  
III/TG 2 24 12  
II/TG 3 50 39  
III/TG 3 52 27  
IV/TG 3 36 24  
I/TG 4 15 5  
II/TG 4 51 48  

Source: Alfred Price. Luftwaffe Data Book, 1997.
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/2072/LWJul42.html#May43

For Nov/Dec 1943, http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/2072/LW43.html

[Squire]

Ya, and I know the 1st USAAF P-47s didnt start ops untill around summer of 1943, the P-38s were almost all in N. Africa after November 1942, as they were needed there.

As for the 109Fs, they did serve into 1943 with many JGs, some in Norway, some East Front, some Med, before all going on to newer types, either 109 or 190. Luftwaffe was very spread out in 43.

[Angus]

Was looking at RAF aces claims in late 1942, there seem to be hardly any 109's around at all.
However, at the same time (1942-1943) there were rather few 190's in the Med.

Something else I have come across are misleading accounts of air-to-air fights where LW aircraft of the type are, according to surviving LW documents, not supposed to have been there.

This applies to the med, and didn't really get me wondering untill a wreck of an aircraft was fished out of the med. Well, I saw it on a museum actually. Well, the thing is, that the aircraft in question was, according to LW documents, supposed to have been at Stalingrad.
Yet it was already in desert colours, and the wreck was found in the med.

190's are reported to have been in places (by allied pilots) where they should not have been (LW documents). And then there is the absence of 109's in the European theatre at the time, - or from my search, - the absence of confirmed 109 kills compared to killed 190's.

I am rather lost here. Does anyone know how complete the LW loss records are? I have ben through those on microfilm, - they were so-so in the sorting and semed to be rather incomplete.

Well after all, a loss of a certain aircraft in a certain theatre should really prove that it was actually there, right?

But, to get to the point, for some reason, there seem to have been really few 109's on the western front in 1942/43, the 190's bearing the brunt of the fight.

And for the 109F showing up in 1943? Well, why not. It was, at least in N-Africa, - in use until late 1942 or more,- I guess they were simply used as long as there were any.

[Meyer]

190 was deployed first in the west for a simple reason: it had many problems and wasn't reliable enough to be sent to the east. Then when was ready, some eastern units were equipped with it.
Naturally, some units kept flying Fw until the end of the war, same thing happened with the 109.

Krusty:   the Friedrich did very well against the Spit V in the Channel and the MTO, and IMHO was superior.

[Bruno]

Krusty: the Friedrich did very well against the Spit V in the Channel and the MTO, and IMHO was superior.

That is correct.

According to what Ireg has complied on the 109F-4 (found here) a FW 190A-2 (BMW 801C) of JG26 was tested along side a 109F-4 and it was found that the F-4 was around 20mph faster. The final report was made on 11 Dec '41.

As Meyer says the FW 190 was still under operational evaluation and kept west (JG2 / JG26) to work out the kinks. Thus 109 units were sent east to fight the Soviets. Later (and without a doubt) the 190 proved to be a better bomber destroyer but Geschwaders like JG51 and JG54 flew 190s in the east until the end of the war. 109 Geschwaders like JG53, JG27 flew their 109s in defense of the Reich...

[Krusty]

Meyer: I don't buy that at all. In '42/'43 the vvs had crap to put up against the LW. LW needed the high performance planes on the Western Front, and considered the fighting on the W. Front to be harder than the fighting on the E. Front. They put it where it was needed first, then once it was developed and more were made it "trickled down" to the E. Front.

Bruno: I was thinking of a later time frame, where the 190 really put pressure on the SpitV, so much so in fact that they rushed the spitIX out to counter the 190.

Angus: Don't forget that planes were many times mis-identified. Especially by allies. Sometimes they mislabeled IAR-80s (whatever you call 'em, the Italian birds) as Fw190s. To the allies "if it had a radial it was a FW". As for how the plane found was supposed to be in the E. Front, I don't know. Mistakes happen. Could be that it was written off in one place, and sent back to FW and the fuselage used for a new plane, which was sent to the Med. Wrk no might be the same but records might show discrepencies. I know that 190As were "recycled' like this to produce more advanced marks (A5s recycled into A6s, A6s into A7s, etc).

It was obviously there. Heck, the LW sent 190As (and early ones, too! When they were still scarce!) to Turkey, and the middle east, and to the Med. Any number of them could have been transfered or moved to replace losses, and so on and so forth. Don't get too tied up in the finer details I guess, stick with squad movements, and squad aircraft, that'll paint a clearer picture (my $0.02)

[Bruno]

Bruno: I was thinking of a later time frame, where the 190 really put pressure on the SpitV, so much so in fact that they rushed the spitIX out to counter the 190.

Well there is no 'later time'. Going into '42 JG 2 and JG 26 were already trained and established with the 190 (all though they both still flew some 109s). Even the G-2 had better overall performance then the A-3 for example.

There's no doubt that the RAF had some respect / concern with the performance of the 190 but that's because this was the plane they faced more often. When comparing it to early version of the 109 (Emils and F-2s which would not stay and fight with Spits once they lost the advantage) the 190 was a huge leap. However, they faced fewer of the early Gustav's to make the same comparison.

[Knegel]

Hi,

the 109F/G was for sure the better dogfighter, but firepower, high divespeed and diveacceleration and very good manouverability while that was much more important in real life.

Where the 109F/G had to slow down and to manouver much to get a good shootingposition, the 190´s with 2x 20mm and specialy 4 x 20mm could make a snapshotkill.
Therefor the 109s had to get more into the dangerus close combat, while the 190´s could stay at unreachable speeds.  Of course for very good pilots, like Hartmann and Moelders the1 x 20mm was enough, but the average pilot got a huge advantage out of the better armament.

Nevertheless, the 190A3 and early A4 had bad problems with their engines. Thats why they was rarely over england in that time.

Since there wasnt a real frontline, the channel was a perfect terrain to bring the 190 into full service.  Over russia it wasnt reliable enough at that time. Specialy on the fast moving fieldbases it was a even bigger problem to introduce a new planetype.  Therefor most of the early 190´s got delivered to the channel, while the reliable and well trained 109 units was needed in russia and africa. The results in Africa in 1941/42 show that the 109F dont had real problems with the RAF. If i would be true that the german HQ did deliver the FW190s to the channel to face the Spitires cause the 109F couldnt handle it, why they almost didnt send them to Africa, where a real front was??

Greetings, Knegel

[Angus]

Emm
"Angus: Don't forget that planes were many times mis-identified. Especially by allies. Sometimes they mislabeled IAR-80s (whatever you call 'em, the Italian birds) as Fw190s. To the allies "if it had a radial it was a FW"

I know that. But I tend to trust it a wee better when the pilot in question is
A. A veteran
B. Has seen the type before
C. Gets in really close quarters.
D. There are more than one case.

And then when I already know that some of the LW reports are wrong.
The airplane they fished out of the Med was a Ju87 BTW, StG 77 if my memory serves me, and it's whole unit was registered in Stalingrad, - no documents  have been found to imply otherwise.
The museum holding the aircraft has been looking....