Author Topic: Katrina helicopters never fired upon!  (Read 532 times)

Offline gofaster

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Katrina helicopters never fired upon!
« on: October 06, 2005, 07:26:55 AM »
Remember those stories of Blackhawks getting peppered by small arms fire over New Orleans?  Turns out it was gossip rather than news, yet it made its way to all of the news media outlets.  Great reporting job!

--- from my weekly AvWeb email---
Katrina Fraud -- Report: No Shots Fired At Heli's...

Gossip May Have Grounded Rescue Aircraft

 Remember the rage you felt when you heard last month from major news outlets that people were taking shots at rescue helicopters over New Orleans. A Knight Ridder investigation has revealed no evidence whatsoever that any helicopter came under fire during the relief effort.

In one news conference, a Coast Guard spokeswoman told reporters that the choppers came under fire every time they landed at a hospital. Trouble is, none of the Coast Guard pilots seem to remember taking fire. Now, it's not that there wasn't gunfire. Rescue workers on the ground regularly heard shots. But directed at aircraft? The Knight Ridder reporters couldn't find anyone who would confirm those reports, which often led to the grounding of aircraft desperately needed for rescue work.

Just to add to the confusion, government and military officials contradict each other on whether orders were issued to ground helicopters and whether they were, in fact, grounded. AVweb previously reported that officials coordinating all air traffic in the area were aware of no incidents in which aircraft took fire.


..."Volunteer Pilot" Uses Aviation In Lie?

 Police in Miami have charged a man who posed as a pilot working night and day to help victims of Hurricane Katrina.

The man allegedly set up a bogus Internet donation site that fraudulently solicited donations to buy fuel for rescue aircraft that did not exist. Internet postings by the man claimed he was transporting to safety critically ill children, "Seven months old and smiling the whole way, as if she knew," according to the Miami Herald, and that he had tipped his wings at Air Force One while flying by.

The warrant for his arrest stated he spoke by phone with a potential donor claiming he was in the cockpit of an aircraft about to take off. During that call, he was interrupted by "what appeared to be sounds from air traffic control" and told the donor it would be his last flight if more money didn't arrive, according to The Associated Press. Prosecutors say he made no such flights and police say the nine-day scam netted about $40,000 over a two-day peak.

People who helped the man told the Miami Herald, "We were under the impression that he hadn't slept for days and he was flying back and forth to New Orleans." Fortunately, much of the money has been returned.

The accused posted heart-wrenching stories on a Web site and asked for electronic donations promising "every dollar, every nickel would go directly into the tanks of these pilots' planes on their missions of mercy." The accused allegedly left a long and incriminating trail through e-mail and on online chat boards.

Offline mauser

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Katrina helicopters never fired upon!
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2005, 12:38:25 PM »
To me, alot of the news = Sex, Scandal, Sensationalism to sell stories.  Once they get a whiff of a possible big "S" story, there seems to be a big scramble to be the first to report it - at the cost of verification.

Offline GtoRA2

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Katrina helicopters never fired upon!
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2005, 12:49:21 PM »
Wait, Wait! Wait!!


The news media got something wrong???


OMG! Shocking!






Well not really, it is more shocking when they get something right.

Offline Gunslinger

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Katrina helicopters never fired upon!
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2005, 01:22:05 PM »
Well WERE WAS FEMA?  Why didn't they send in their gunships and the FEMA army????

Oh wait that's not their job.

Offline Mickey1992

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« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2005, 01:32:17 PM »
A good editorial from the Washington Times:

"How many times does this have to happen before the media seriously examines why so many of them get the big stories wrong in exactly the same way?"

http://washingtontimes.com/commentary/20051002-093822-4400r.htm

Offline Charon

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Katrina helicopters never fired upon!
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2005, 02:34:13 PM »
You ought to see the level of ignorance being shown where gas prices and "price gouging" are concerned today. Just not happening at retail, in fact can’t happen with the current business model except in low single digit cases. With this issue you can add ambitious attorney generals and "concerned" politicians to the list, who don't seem to want to know anything that could deflate a good grand stand. They of course feed into the ignorant (typically) broadcast media since they are authorities (that obviously couldn't have an ulterior motive...) And some of the “experts” I’ve seen brought in to participate on the cable news networks are truly clueless. Same with some of the PhDs who seem to understand crude but not refined product production and distribution -- but they have an expert opinion anyway.

Retail margins shrank this year during/since Katrina compared to the same period in 2004 -- fact with good solid data to support it. If gas cost $3.00/gal guess what -- wholesale prices, taxes etc ate up that extra dollar increase. But nobody was asking “What was your wholesale price?” Credit card companies are making as much on your tank of gas as the retailer selling the product. The price at the pump doesn’t reflect the price you paid for the existing tank, but the price you will have to pay tomorrow to buy your next load, which could be an extra $5,000. Those very same price signs with the 1 foot tall letters that make the retailer an easy target provide the same mechanism that gives consumers obvious choices at the expense of potential gouging.

And even if you look upstream, the oil industry traditionally (over the course of years) doesn’t make out as well as other industries. Making a lot of cash now as a result of supply and demand dynamics, but no one is comfortable saying what to expect on average over coming years, particularly at refining. Of course, you could regulate the industry, and go back to long term average higher prices and spot shortages like we had in the regulated era of the 1970s.

But, this is a complex story requiring significant, detailed understanding, and it just isn’t there. You either need more time to understand the dynamics of a complicated industry, or you need to tremendously expand your staffing to bring broader expertise in house or even know enough to know who to call as an expert. For a paper -- maybe. But for broadcast infotainment -- not likely.

Charon
« Last Edit: October 06, 2005, 02:38:27 PM by Charon »

Offline Sox62

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Katrina helicopters never fired upon!
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2005, 03:54:37 AM »
Let's see a link to a credible news source for this please.

Offline Charon

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« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2005, 09:05:40 AM »
It's pretty much common sense for anybody that understands the petroleum distribution infrastructure in the United States. In fact, marketers and retailers gouging is almost laughable. About like asking for the link to prove that the earth is round. What factual basis do you have to doubt it?

But, credible news sources are hard to find on this, given the amount of ill informed opinion and sources that were not really sources. I will link my article when I get finished writing it and it goes into print. Until then, you can look at the following congressional testimony (click on the PDFs):
http://www.nacsonline.com/NACS/News/nd0908051.htm

Here's a nice summary article:
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orange/orl-gasprices2505sep25,0,2565382.story?coll=orl-news-headlines-orange&track=rss

An Association fact sheet:
http://www.nacsonline.com/NACS/Resource/PRToolkit/Campaigns/prtk_hurricane_1.htm

OPIS rack to retail data supports the fact that retail margins dropped during the crisis period compared to 2004.

Don't intend to hijack this into a gas prices thread, Just pointing out that complicated stories in events like this, particularly where emotion is involved and there is a "scoop" rush, strain the abilities of the mainstream press to provide accurate coverage. Mine is one example of many.

Charon
« Last Edit: October 07, 2005, 09:22:38 AM by Charon »

Offline Toad

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« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2005, 09:11:32 AM »
No gouging?

I took a load of supplies from Atlanta to Gulfport, MS on the Friday after the storm. I paid $5/gallon for gas in Atlanta and that after driving around a while looking for a cheaper price.

On the way over I topped all containers in Meridian, MS and paid $2.49 a gallon after waiting in line while a tanker truck refilled the empty station tanks. While few stations in Meridian had gas, I never saw one charging over $3 on the way down or the way back.

Gas was still @ $4 when I got back to Atlanta.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Charon

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Katrina helicopters never fired upon!
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2005, 09:32:45 AM »
Quote
I took a load of supplies from Atlanta to Gulfport, MS on the Friday after the storm. I paid $5/gallon for gas in Atlanta and that after driving around a while looking for a cheaper price.


Well, when you are told that the gas you have in the ground is the last guaranteed you are going to receive for 6 weeks, you have to figure out what you are going to do. Supply came into the market quicker, but it is being trucked in hundereds of miles and is still in limited supply compared to the market.

The gray area here is do you price higher to preserve supplies for those that really need it, or price lower and be out of gasoline for 3-4 days? Your story illustrates perfectly the two approaches. Is it better to have $5.00/gal gas to put in the tank or no gas for 24 - 48 hours at $3.00 hr?

I spoke with a guy at Cato who clearly advises to price higher. His arguments make sense, but I am rounding up some counter positions.

Regardless, can you tell me what the retailers' wholesale prices were, and what their allocation percentages were? I've spoken with the Ga. Oilmans Association and local marketers are lucky to get fuel, especially diesel, even today and at any price. They prefer, and I think their customers prefer, to have it in the ground.

[edit: You also pointed out you were able to drive around and compare prices using those big price signs - a competitive market. Had cheaper gas been around, with the retailer knowing there would be steady supply, there is no question those prices signs would have driven prices lower in the market. The fact that that prices were lower in MS is likely due to emergency anti gouging laws that artificially limit pricing (in a non-market, feel good manner) but ultimately limit supply to those in need.]

Charon
« Last Edit: October 07, 2005, 09:48:19 AM by Charon »

Offline Toad

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Katrina helicopters never fired upon!
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2005, 09:52:42 AM »
The Ga. Governor had initiated price gouging action at the time those stations were charging $5. They were still at ~ $4 when we got back on Monday.

You raise prices to save it for those that "really need it"? What do those that "really need it" that can't pay that much do? Or do they not "really need it" if they can't pay $5 per gallon?

You're not really suggesting that GA gasoline had a wholesale price nearly double that of Mississippi even with gouging laws enacted in both states?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2005, 10:29:21 AM »
Every retailer of any product has to look at landed cost for his product and then look at what the consumer is willing to spend.

When that product is a necessity of life, the rules suddenly change?

Why in hell should we let the oil companies get away with a price model thats based on the next shipment instead of the one he's got in hand?

There's two kinds of goods and services for sale in the world.. necessities and 'luxuries'.

When my suppliers prices go up I don't crank the prices up on product that's in stock bought at the lower price.. my competitors would eat me alive selling thier in house inventories at the lower price. And if the wholesale price becomes more than what the competing wholesalers price is, I buy the product from the competition.. and if the end customer sez the price is too high, he just won't buy. That's how small business handles non-necessity sales. If it costs too much, the customer buys elsewhere or does without. So we price with short margins to stay in business and competition shakes out the gougers.

The mechanisim of retail for necessities is pretty simple, and nothing less than bloodthirsty.. The value of an object is the price the object will bring. Has nothing to do with the costs associated with getting the product in reach of the customer... and that's why the oil companies are reporting higher profits than ever before. Their product is a necessity. The price is fixed by a group of major suppliers. Since the product is an absolute necessity, the oil companies can pad the margins with the result being the public is being screwed by the oil companies, plain and simple.

Now if I was an oil company, I'd create the illusion of a different price model (advance price increase) and since I control virtually every step of the process from raw material to the customer I can be very creative about 'associated costs'. I can create any picture I care too because I'm in the catbird seat every step of the way from inception to consumption...

Once before we were confronted with the spectre of conglomerate price fixing and gouging.. and the first Roosevelt was forced to bust 'em up.

What rocket scientists in Washington has recently ok'ed the merger of the largest oil companies on the planet??
« Last Edit: October 07, 2005, 10:32:08 AM by Hangtime »
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Offline Charon

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Katrina helicopters never fired upon!
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2005, 10:40:58 AM »
Quote
You raise prices to save it for those that "really need it"? What do those that "really need it" that can't pay that much do? Or do they not "really need it" if they can't pay $5 per gallon?


That's a good question. $5/gallon is affordable to just about everyone for short periods. For that matter, $3/gal price are directly comprable to the inflation adjusted prices paid by consumers every day in 1981. $5/gal will cut down on unnecessiary travel, encourage public transportation and the use of the economy vehicle vs. the Escalade in the garage. If the prices were $20/gallon that would be different. $5/gal. is a  hardship for sure, but not compared to the hardship of not being able to put any gasoline in the tank and missing a day or so of work.

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You're not really suggesting that GA gasoline had a wholesale price nearly double that of Mississippi even with gouging laws enacted in both states?


Yes, especially since it was after the state of emergency was declared. There are a variety of potential reasons that could come into play, including such things as easier access to closer supplies via trucks (GA is on the Colonial pipeline that was shut down); oversupply in the market at the wholesale level (operaing refineries can't ship product on the pipeline and dump it locally), demand down due to local daily routine disrupted (no work commuting, people out of state, etc.).

I would suggest that the $1 - $2 extra covered the supply equation before the state of emergency was declared. If not, we should be seeing announcements of lawsuits against the retailers. Gasoline wholesale prices are set in the same way commodities and stock prices are set. As we all know, those are immune to wild swings :). Local supply conditions magnify this further. There are oil traders who stated "I don't have to work for the rest of the year" after Katrina. Who are the gougers again? Marketing and distribution (includes the pipeline common carrier component) account for about 2 percent of the price of a gallon of gasoline. Hard data shows that didn't change with Katrina, in fact, retail margins dropped.

Gasoline price gouging can happen, and probably did happen at retail to a very limited extent, but why is it hard to gouge?

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Bob Sloan kept the price at $2.86 at his Oak Park, Ill., station and had so much business Thursday he had to assign an attendant to direct traffic. Most weren't his regulars, he says. "Maybe they'll come back."
http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/2005-09-01-gas-$6-usat_x.htm


Competitors in Bob's market had to respond to his prices at whatever degree they could. Perhaps he sold at a loss to build volume. Or maybe he had locked in a particularly favorable supply deal. There is almost always a "Bob" in the market.

This is a hijack though, and I would be glad to post this in another thread next week when I finish writing the 4000+ words on the subject I am getting paid to write :)

Charon
« Last Edit: October 07, 2005, 11:08:48 AM by Charon »

Offline Charon

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Katrina helicopters never fired upon!
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2005, 02:41:18 PM »
I missed this one, Hang, so a little more deadline procrastination on my part.

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Why in hell should we let the oil companies get away with a price model that’s based on the next shipment instead of the one he's got in hand?


The vast majority of gasoline is not sold directly to the customer by an oil company, it is sold by mom and pop operators (mainly) up to chains that operate a handful of stores to maybe hundreds of stores. What if you knew the price you would have to pay for your product was going to increase by 90 cents per gallon (x 10,000 - 20,000 gallons) in two days, and your line of credit (based on wholesale gasoline at $1.50 and not $2.50) could not cover that increase. But, your bank will work with you -- for an extra price of the action, of course. And, your net margin on that gallon of gasoline is under 5 cents to perhaps negative figures for short periods during volitility? And the credit card companies are making about as much on a tank of gasoline as you are?

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And if the wholesale price becomes more than what the competing wholesalers price is, I buy the product from the competition.


That model doesn't exist in downstream petroleum. Retailers buy a commodity, and the price can broadly fluctuates multiple times per day at the whim of the spot market. Branded contracts are usually 5 cents or so higher than the spot (to cover the benefits of the brand) though in a volatile “inverse” market the oil company contracts have kept those prices 10s of cents below local rack prices (reflecting local supply) for branded marketers (but they still move with the spot market) leaving independents in a really tight spot.

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and that's why the oil companies are reporting higher profits than ever before. Their product is a necessity. The price is fixed by a group of major suppliers. Since the product is an absolute necessity, the oil companies can pad the margins with the result being the public is being screwed by the oil companies, plain and simple.


The core factor is the price of crude (where oil companies get exploration and production and trading profits). This, for the first time in a long time, is actually being driven by demand from places like China. OPEC and the rest are strained to meet demand, and not necessarily curtailing supply like the past.

Refinery crack spreads (another distinct, often separate layer in the industry) have been good lately, but typical refinery returns are in the 5 percent range, which is hardly robust. [edit: crack spead is the profit generated by "cracking" crude into refined products, then selling the refined prooducts as commodities which are also at the whim of the market] Gasoline and diesel prices are largely fixed by traders at 7 regional "spot" markets with additional trading conducted while moving though the pipeline until it reaches the terminal "rack" where it is purchsed by the independent retailer for market price, or picked up as part of a branded contract supply agreement for contracted branded price.

Major oil companies have generally sold off much of the refining capacity to independents since it is usually more trouble than it’s worth (compared to E&P) with refining returns typically around 5 percent and well below the S&P. And, there is no consensus that these current profits are here to stay for any length of time for either exploration and production or refining. If Chinese expansion can’t be sustained and collapses - poof. $20 bbl oil. If demand drops, refineries lose profits very, very quickly. In general, the current free market infrastructure delivers prices (relative to inflation) to the consumer that are much better than those delivered when the industry was regulated in the 1970s, with more reliable supply.

BTW, when you run at 98 percent refining capacity to demand, and you lose 30 percent of production to two hurricanes, your supply relative to demand puts you 28 percent in the hole (though that is recovering pretty quickly now, hopefully by early Dec. we will be close to normal for refining). What do you expect to happen to commodity prices in that situation? Then throw in all the speculators that play the market. I’m amazed it’s working as well as it is and prices are as low as they are.

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Now if I was an oil company, I'd create the illusion of a different price model (advance price increase) and since I control virtually every step of the process from raw material to the customer I can be very creative about 'associated costs'. I can create any picture I care too because I'm in the catbird seat every step of the way from inception to consumption...


As noted above, your distribution model is not factual.

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What rocket scientists in Washington has recently ok'ed the merger of the largest oil companies on the planet??
I think that’s a legitimate question. The answer, is that anything has gone before the FTC since “globalization” has received a free pass, and not just in the oil industry. It started under Clinton, and I don't think Bush is looking to turn back the clock. I don't think this is beneficial to small business or consumers.

I guess, to get somewhat back on thread track, this is the type of complexity that the broadcast media is ill equipped to handle, and that the print media takes months to grasp in many cases. And this is the simple version (I left out things like allocation impact). I saw little evidence that this complexity was anymore understood at the cable news channels than it is here, or by the various grandstanding Governors and attorney generals who you get the impression don't really want to know if it gets in the way of righteous outrage..

Charon
« Last Edit: October 07, 2005, 03:24:21 PM by Charon »

Offline Charon

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« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2005, 02:50:23 PM »
And to get more back on track,

I was suspicious about the whole "sniper" thing as well at the time, since it lacked the expected direct interviews with the pilots and aircrew. I wonder if you could hear somebody shooting at you in a helicopter with a helmet on from any great distance or determine you were being shot at without seeing muzzle flashes and tracers? I was waiting to see the bullet holes, or hear a more direct description of the incident, and neither materialized.

I did see the tail end of some piece that seemed to have found some rape victims, but didn't catch the details.

You could expect some degree of additional anarchy and lawlessness after Katrina, but then N.O. was one place I was very careful in when I was there during "good" times. You might even see that murders, rapes and assaults went down during this period.

[edit: This did seem to provide an awful lot of useful scapegoats for various failures as the crisis developed]

Charon
« Last Edit: October 07, 2005, 03:05:53 PM by Charon »