F6f-p

[Krusty]

http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/021408.jpg

Check that out before you say that. The fact it was a night fighter didn't mean it automatically had 20mms. The two planes in lead are -5Ns and they have 6x50cals. The 20mm have a longer barrel and are more distinguished, from the other photos I've seen.

[Krusty]

That link doesn't like being clicked. Just tried it now after the fact. I found the pic again and hosted it. New link:

http://www.nakatomitower.com/021408.jpg

[Greebo]

I've never seen a photo of a daytime F6F with the 20mm cannons fitted. Out of idle curiosity, does anyone have one?

[Hornet33]

You sure those are 5N's? Could be 3N's as those did have the 6 .50 gun pack. Also looks to me that the photo showed a launch for a fighter sweep during daytime?????? With night fighters?????

There is a photo in a book I have of 4 5N's in formation over Leyte in December 1944 and they clearly have the 20mm cannons onboard. The book is The Great Book of World War Two Aircraft, printed by BONANZA pages 204-205. Says in here that the Navy had 8 night fighter squadrons and the Marines had 5 all equipped with the Hellcat. There were more squadrons out there but they had the F4U night fighter, and some were equipped with a modified TBM with radar and a big bellybutton spotlight as a sort of command and control aircraft.

Anyway the debate isn't what they had. The information I've found clearly says that the night fighter and photo recon Hellcats came equipped from the factory with 20mm. If they were removed in the field, OK, but the point is they did have them, and in fairly large numbers. Over 1500 aircraft I think amounts to a significant number of planes.

I think it would be a cool plane to have added to the plane set. It's not some super plane, lets face it allot of planes in the game will hand a Hellcat it's ass.

You seem like your trying to tell me that if they had them then they were removed from every fighter out there. I doubt thats the case, and regardless you will be hard pressed to find actual numbers anywhere. Production numbers of aircraft don't lie.

[Clifra Jones]

This plane would be a definite combat tool in AH. One of the real issue we have in AH is Cv defense. The only cannon armed planes on the CV are the Seafire and the C-hog. While the seafire has canons it really only has those 2 canons. The peashooters are useless against bombers. In bomber defense it can hold it's own but not well due to the limited load-out. The C-hog is a fine aircraft but it is not a plane you can up in an emergency and gain alt for defending the CV. Hogs need alt to be effective and they climb like a sloth.

The canon equipped F6F could fill a key role in carrier defense. Granted 4x50s + 2x20mm is lethal but that's what you need to stop the bombers.  
This plane would be perfect for CV bomber intercept.

Perk it like the C-Hog. I would even go along with making it only available on CVs.

I do not believe this plane would in any way seriously imbalance the MA. Especially if perked.

Lastly, if many F6Fs were designed with 20mm as an option, even though most US pilots chose not to use them, why can't we have this option as well? (I can guess, you don't want to face them while your trying to bomb that CV)

[Hornet33]

Originally posted by Clifra Jones
Lastly, if many F6Fs were designed with 20mm as an option, even though most US pilots chose not to use them, why can't we have this option as well? (I can guess, you don't want to face them while your trying to bomb that CV)

Thank you!!! My point exactly!!!

Oh I put in a research request at the Smithsonian Air and Space Museum to check on this for me. I called and talked to a researcher there (nice guy, he volunters for stuff like this) and he informed me that they have the actual production records from the factories in their data base they can cross reffrance from. He told me it will probably take 3-4 weeks before my request gets processed but once I get the info I will post it.

[Karnak]

Add this and you may as well remove the F6F-5 with six .50 cals from AH.

That is why it has no place.  You would replace the major combat aircraft of the USN with a low combat time version just to get an edge up while thumbing your nose at historical relevancy.

If you need cannons off of a CV take an F4U-1C, Seafire or A6M.

[Clifra Jones]

Originally posted by Karnak
Add this and you may as well remove the F6F-5 with six .50 cals from AH.

That is why it has no place.  You would replace the major combat aircraft of the USN with a low combat time version just to get an edge up while thumbing your nose at historical relevancy.

If you need cannons off of a CV take an F4U-1C, Seafire or A6M.

Now you make the erroneous assumption that everyone would up this plane. Did you not see where I said it should be perked? Why doesn't everyone fly a C-hog instead of the other variants? Because it's perked!

Once the bombers hit the radar circle or are called out in most cases you don't have enough time or air space to get a c-hog up to alt or speed to be effective. The Seafire is a fine plane but again the loadout is limited against a formation of b24s. A6m? Lets talk about limited loadout not to mention chitty canons and its a paper airplane (figuratively).

The F6F is tough, can climb and turn well. With the added firepower it would be a formative weapon against bombers.

I'd even say perk it a bit higher than the c-hog, that should keep it from being over used. While I did mention the 20mm as an option I don't think in reality that it should just be an option on the existing F6F. It should be another plane so it can be perked.

And I don't buy your historical numbers argument. Only 428 N1K2s were produced yet that is a significant plane in AH.
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/air_power/ap18a.htm

By your logic this plane should be severely limited in availability. To be "historically accurate".

Just so we are all clear, did you use these same arguments against the C-Hog?

[Karnak]

The F4U-1C was added before I subscribed.  I subscribed with the v1.03 release.

And you remember what a nightmare the F4U-1C was before it was perked?

If they add the F6F-5N and perk it at the same time, fine, but I don't see it as a very useful addition.  There are night fighters that played a much bigger part in the war.

The request looks to me like a simple "I want this special version with more firepower!!!!!   WAHHHHH!"

We don't have a special, rare version of the N1K2-J.  We simply have the N1K2-J.  If somebody wanted to request that the version with the CV hook be added I'd argue against it.

What we need in F6Fs is the F6F-3 and a redone 3D model for it.

[Clifra Jones]

It's just a better tool to protect carriers. If we could get some players to actually fly CAP over carriers then maybe I wouldn't be asking for it. Fact is that most don't.

I think the data shows that this plane is not as rare is you make it out to be. I'm not asking for the night version just a version equipped with canons.

If perked it would not unbalance the MA. It would give those few of us that do try and defend carriers, instead of just those who just leave and go fly somewhere safe, an effective weapon.

Thing is do you really think a formation of 3 b24s, flown at a US carrier group (equipped with proximity fuse shells) at 5000 ft would even make it to drop their bombs? Yet this happens every day on the MA. If b24s, b17s & Lancasters were attacking US carriers in WWII don't you think those F6F pilots would be mounting those canons? I certainly would.

[Hornet33]

One other reason I would like to see this plane done is because it would be very easy to do. The Hellcat is already in the game. Easy to make a mod to the exsiting one and then perk it.

I would love to the P-61 also.

One last thing, just because it was designed as a night fighter didn't mean it wasn't flown during daylight operations. In all reality it was a day fighter modified to fly at night.

[Ack-Ack]

The F6F-5N was a night fighter and that was its primary role.  Yes, on some missions, the F6F-5N was used in the day time but those were rare occasions and not a common mission for the night fighters.  It really has no place in AH since AH does not model night nor airbone mounted radar.

That picture you posted showing the F6F-5Ns taking off a carrier along with normal F6F-5s was most likely in the late afternoon.  It was common to have a mix flight of F6F-5Ns and F6F-5s for night time CAP.  The F6F-5Ns would lead a flight and would use their radar to guide the regular Hellcats to the target.

Also, since the radar was mounted on the wing of the F6F-5N, it hindered its performance.  Its maneuverability was effected and the top speed lowered by over 20mph.

The F6F-5P was a recce version of the Hellcat and came in two versions, an unarmed version and a fighter-recce version that kept the 6x wing mounted .50 caliber Browning machine guns.  It did not carry a 2x 20mm cannons.


ack-ack

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Clifra Jones

Thing is do you really think a formation of 3 b24s, flown at a US carrier group (equipped with proximity fuse shells) at 5000 ft would even make it to drop their bombs? Yet this happens every day on the MA. If b24s, b17s & Lancasters were attacking US carriers in WWII don't you think those F6F pilots would be mounting those canons? I certainly would.

They didn't mount them when they were attacked by Japanese bombers or kamikazis.



ack-ack

[Hornet33]

Sources man sources. Where are you getting your information? Or are you just assuming that is the case. It seems everyone opposed to this "option" for the plane is just tossing out their opinions, and expect everyone else to except it as fact. I am an avid military history buff. I enjoy doing research on things like this and the research I have conducted on this option of the Hellcat tells me that it was not all that uncommon to see these planes flying with 20mm cannons onboard. My research to this point also tells me that the N/P models were shipped from the factory with 20mm's. While I do agree that some of these aircraft probably had them removed and replaced with the .50, it in no way suggests that ALL of them were.

People complain on this board about how unrealistic some request on here are. I don't belive this one is due to the fact that HTC could do this plane very easily, and the number of aircraft produced, shows it was not that rare of an aircraft. This is realy no different than the La-7 with the 2 or 3 gun "option" or the Spit IX with the 4 .303 or 2 .50 "option" or any of the other planes that you can change the weapons mix. The Hellcat -5 models had this option built into them at the factory. I just don't see the aurgument that this was only used in the night fighters and we don't have night as a valid point. If that is the case get rid of the lancaster. The Brits only flew at night with their bombers. We don't have night so why do we need it? Oh but wait, they sometimes flew during the day so we need it.

Do some homework, a little research, have some facts. I keep hearing from you guys that, "They didn't fly them that way, so we don't need it." How do you know? Were you there in 1944? I wasn't so I did my homework to find out. The history books and Tech Specs I've found tells me they did fly them. I'll belive the documentation before I'll belive in opinions and assumptions.

[Hornet33]

U.S. Naval Historical Archives


Try reading the Standard Aircraft Characteristics / F6F-5 "Hellcat" supplied by Grumman. Look at the line drawings. Their line drawings for the F6F-5 FIGHTER shows 2 20mm cannons with 450 rds. Read the Armorment Specs.

Our Hellcats aren't as capable as they should be. We can't carry a 2000lb bomb on the centerline like the real one could. 4000lb bomb load for the real one. Thats impressive.

Oh I'll save you guys the trouble here:  They didn't fly them that way:cry