F6f-p

[toadkill]

your all talking about this plane being a night fighter predominantly, but look at other planes in the game who arent used for what they were in world war 2 the mosquito was used for bomber orriginally, and later in the war after radar advancements, and discovery of the german 110s nightfighting radar, the mossy was converted from an UNARMED bomber to a night fighter, yet in AH the mossy has the same use as the 110, it is used as an attack aircraft, even though the mossy is a bomber/night fighter. lets not talk about mixed up uses.

i myself have seen an f6f with what i believe were 20 mil cannons, at an airshow in memphis, TN. i say "believe" it had 20mm cannons, because i could not ask the person to whom it belonged, if thats what they were, they were extended barrels on the win, like all others.  and it had no radar pod on it.

[Ack-Ack]

The early Mosquitos were unarmed but later on were equipped with guns to make it a fighter/attack plane.  It just happened to also make a fantastic night fighter but it kind of fell into that role.  Mosquitos were used extensively in the attack role, some of the greatest raids were carried out by Mosquitos.  The role they play in AH is pretty much the role they played in WW2.


ack-ack

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Hornet33
U.S. Naval Historical Archives


Try reading the Standard Aircraft Characteristics / F6F-5 "Hellcat" supplied by Grumman. Look at the line drawings. Their line drawings for the F6F-5 FIGHTER shows 2 20mm cannons with 450 rds. Read the Armorment Specs.

Our Hellcats aren't as capable as they should be. We can't carry a 2000lb bomb on the centerline like the real one could. 4000lb bomb load for the real one. Thats impressive.

Oh I'll save you guys the trouble here:  They didn't fly them that way:cry

You tell us to do some research but one could say the same to you.

You have not shown that any other plane than the F6F-5N carried 20mm cannons.  You failed to show any documents or photos that show the F6F-5P outfitted with the twin 20mm cannons.  All that you've shown is design specs but as I stated earlier, just because the design specs list that the plane could be outfitted with 20mm cannons doesn't mean they were outfitted with that equipment.  

Again, let us use the P-38D as an example of this.  All design specs list the P-38D with either a 37mm Oldsmobile cannon or a 23mm cannon.  But in reality the P-38D never carried either one.  Not one operational P-38D was outfitted with either the 37mm or 23mm cannon.  So, just because the design specs list it, doesn't mean the plane had it in reality.  You need more proof than the design specs.  Better evidence would be to show photos of any other Hellcat other than the N model carrying the 20mm weapons package.

Yes, it is true that late model F6F-3s and all F6F-5s were built to be able to carry 20mm cannons, other than the Hellcats that served as night fighters, all were produced with 6x. .50 caliber Browning machine guns.  The F6F-5P was a photo-recce aircraft and only had 6x .50 caliber machine guns.  There is no evidence that shows the F6F-5P carried anything other than cameras and .50 cals.

Only 3 squadrons were equipped with the F6F-5N, VFN-76, VFN-77, and VFN-78 (some list these squadrons having a mix of F6F-3Ns and F6F-5Ns).  Due to the nature of the night fighter mission, it was difficult to operate them from carriers since they needed round the clock duty by launch and recovery crews.

Now I do concede that in some aspects, the ordnance load out is incorrect.  The F6F-5 was capable of firing the "Tiny Tim" rocket pod and it should have that option in the game.  Just as the P-38 was able to carry 4,000 pounds worth of bombs (which it commonly did in the PTO), the ordnance loadout for the F6F-5 should also reflect the ordnance loadouts it used in the war.  


ack-ack

[toadkill]

you guys know, ive heard from a reliable source that for some reason or another the dehaviland mosquito was close to if not totally invisible to ww2 radar. (little off subject)

[Hornet33]

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
You tell us to do some research but one could say the same to you.

You have not shown that any other plane than the F6F-5N carried 20mm cannons.  You failed to show any documents or photos that show the F6F-5P outfitted with the twin 20mm cannons.  All that you've shown is design specs but as I stated earlier, just because the design specs list that the plane could be outfitted with 20mm cannons doesn't mean they were outfitted with that equipment.  

Again, let us use the P-38D as an example of this.  All design specs list the P-38D with either a 37mm Oldsmobile cannon or a 23mm cannon.  But in reality the P-38D never carried either one.  Not one operational P-38D was outfitted with either the 37mm or 23mm cannon.  So, just because the design specs list it, doesn't mean the plane had it in reality.  You need more proof than the design specs.  Better evidence would be to show photos of any other Hellcat other than the N model carrying the 20mm weapons package.

Yes, it is true that late model F6F-3s and all F6F-5s were built to be able to carry 20mm cannons, other than the Hellcats that served as night fighters, all were produced with 6x. .50 caliber Browning machine guns.  The F6F-5P was a photo-recce aircraft and only had 6x .50 caliber machine guns.  There is no evidence that shows the F6F-5P carried anything other than cameras and .50 cals.

Only 3 squadrons were equipped with the F6F-5N, VFN-76, VFN-77, and VFN-78 (some list these squadrons having a mix of F6F-3Ns and F6F-5Ns).  Due to the nature of the night fighter mission, it was difficult to operate them from carriers since they needed round the clock duty by launch and recovery crews.

Now I do concede that in some aspects, the ordnance load out is incorrect.  The F6F-5 was capable of firing the "Tiny Tim" rocket pod and it should have that option in the game.  Just as the P-38 was able to carry 4,000 pounds worth of bombs (which it commonly did in the PTO), the ordnance loadout for the F6F-5 should also reflect the ordnance loadouts it used in the war.  


ack-ack

OK here is the first pic and you'll notice that the right wing does NOT have a radome. This plane just rolled off the factory floor and doesn't even have it's final paint job yet. Looks like it's been test flown though due to the oil streaks from the exhaust.
F6F with 20mm

Here is a nice pic of a 20mm equiped 5N
20mm equiped F6F-5N

Happy???

[Ack-Ack]

It wasn't totally invisible to radar but it did have a lower radar signature than most planes.  The reason is the all wood construction of the Mosquito made it reflect less radar signals, an early example of using radar absorbing materials.  Of course, I hardly think though that was reason why the Mosquito went to an all wood exterior, just an unknown (at the time of design) benefit.



ack-ack

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Hornet33
OK here is the first pic and you'll notice that the right wing does NOT have a radome. This plane just rolled off the factory floor and doesn't even have it's final paint job yet. Looks like it's been test flown though due to the oil streaks from the exhaust.
F6F with 20mm

Here is a nice pic of a 20mm equiped 5N
20mm equiped F6F-5N

Happy???

The first picture is more likely a F6F-5E that just got upgraded to the 20mm gun package.  A lot of the F6F-5Es were upgraded to the 20mm gun package but kept the old APS-3 radar systems and then were redesignated as N's.

Here are pictures of the two different ones.  The top photo is the F6F-5N with the APS-6 radar system.





And this is the APS-3 radar system, this one on a F6F-5E but also used on those F6F-5Ns that were upgraded from the F6F-5E.



It is not a picture of a F6F-5P since there are no visible camera ports.  Although you can't see them in this picture, this is a F6F-5P.



Notice no 20mm?


ack-ack

[Hornet33]

You know what, I could pick your pics apart as easily as you pick mine apart. You wanted pics of a F6F that wasn't a night fighter with 20mm's installed. I gave you one. So you say it must be a night fighter with a different radar. Tell you what, you prove it isn't an F6F-5.

Simple fact of the matter is you don't get to decide what goes in the game, any more than I do. The FACT that the Grumman Aircraft Corp tech specs CLEARLY say that the F6F's were equipped with 20mm cannons with a *note* thats says "some" F6F's were equipped with 6 .50cal's is lost on you. Those documents were pulled from the US Navy's historical archives.

The fact that people can be so narrow minded is beyond me. I didn't know that the F6F was equipped with 20mm untill a few days ago. The guy that started this thread perked my curiosity so I looked into it. Well guess what, I was wrong when I thought that they were only equipped with the .50's. It's obvious that Grumman manufactured a bunch of these things with 20mm's. Actual numbers?? Don't know but I'm trying to find out.

[toadkill]

dude, ack-ack that f6f-p clearly has cannons maybe if you werent in such a blind rage you could see them; here ill highlight them with paint so you can see them.

heres a link to hte thing

f6f-p with highlighted cannons

i really hope you didnt just pick that picture because the sun glare made it where at 1st glance you couldnt see 20mm guns. and btw i didnt add the guns, just made circle and arrow, yes, you can check the orriginal they are there. you just have to examine it scientifically.

|back off subject|i believe the mosquito was made of wood because it was more abundant than metal in britain.

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Hornet33
You know what, I could pick your pics apart as easily as you pick mine apart. You wanted pics of a F6F that wasn't a night fighter with 20mm's installed. I gave you one. So you say it must be a night fighter with a different radar. Tell you what, you prove it isn't an F6F-5.

That picture doesn't change the facts.  The only Hellcats to have carried the 20mm cannons were the F6F-5N and the F6F-5Es that were later upgraded to carry the 20mm cannons and redesignated F6F-5Ns.

The F6F-5P was a photo recce plane and in the USN, it retained the 6 .50 caliber machine guns.  The Royal Navy had two versions of the F6F-5P, one an unarmed version and a fighter/recce version, like the US counter-part, retained the 6 .50 caliber machine guns.  That picture you showed of the F6F-5 with the 20mm was not a P, no visible camera ports.

Simple fact of the matter is you don't get to decide what goes in the game, any more than I do. The FACT that the Grumman Aircraft Corp tech specs CLEARLY say that the F6F's were equipped with 20mm cannons with a *note* thats says "some" F6F's were equipped with 6 .50cal's is lost on you. Those documents were pulled from the US Navy's historical archives.

Just like how you're stating why this plane should get this option, I am merely providing a counter point as to why it should not be added.

The vast majority, with the exception of the night squadrons, all were equipped with the 6 .50 caliber machine guns.  Again, like the example I already used previously, the design specs don't always reflect what was used in real life.  

The fact that people can be so narrow minded is beyond me. I didn't know that the F6F was equipped with 20mm untill a few days ago. The guy that started this thread perked my curiosity so I looked into it. Well guess what, I was wrong when I thought that they were only equipped with the .50's. It's obvious that Grumman manufactured a bunch of these things with 20mm's. Actual numbers?? Don't know but I'm trying to find out.

1,432 F6F-5Ns were built and of those, some also went to the Royal Navy.  

The reason why the night fighters were equipped with the 20mm and the regular front line Hellcats weren't was because of the philosophy of the time.  Night engagements were not at all like regular day time air combat.  The airborne radars were still rather primitive and while it could locate the target and provide a bearing, once a pilot got within a certain range of the target the radar was useless.  The pilot and the radar operator had to then visually locate the target in order to engage.  This resulted in very brief engagements, usually just a single pass.  So you needed to hit hard and with a cannon equipped night fighter, you had more likely of a chance to score a kill on the first pass, especially against the thinner armored Japanese planes.


ack-ack

[sgtdeaux]

Toad,
Enclosed with this message are the two tools required for arguing with anyone on this forum.. a 2X4 and a brick.
Use the 2X4 to bang them on the head to get their attention.. THEN make your argument.
After they shoot it down with pointless tyrades or bad drawings bang your head against the brick for 30 minutes.. you will find this technique less painful then arguing with the plebians.
Jg44 leads the way.

-SgtDeaux

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by toadkill
dude, ack-ack that f6f-p clearly has cannons maybe if you werent in such a blind rage you could see them; here ill highlight them with paint so you can see them.

heres a link to hte thing

f6f-p with highlighted cannons

i really hope you didnt just pick that picture because the sun glare made it where at 1st glance you couldnt see 20mm guns. and btw i didnt add the guns, just made circle and arrow, yes, you can check the orriginal they are there. you just have to examine it scientifically.

 

That's not a 20mm cannon, that is the inner most .50 cal.













The 2nd to last image is a F6F-5P.


One thing that cannot be argued is the fact the Hellcat could take as much damage as it was able to dish out.  200+ hits were counted on this Hellcat.  



ack-ack

[Karnak]

Toadkill,

Now you've stepped in it.     You mentioned Mossies and tried to relate the fighter Mossies to the BF110's night-fighter role.  Way, way wrong.

The Mossie was designed from the start to take four 20mm cannon under the cockpit because de Haviland knew that it would make a very good fighter even if the RAF didn't.  Furthermore, the first fighter Mossies entered service before the first bomber Mossies.  After seeing the prototype easily out run a Spitfire Mk V the RAF wanted recon, fighter and bomber versions ASAP.  The Mosquito F.Mk II was not a radar equiped night fighter, though it did see use as a night fighter.

The Mossie we have is the Mosquito FB.Mk VI.  FB is for Fighter-Bomber and it was not radar equipped (in most cases), yet was the most produced Mossie and saw heavy use in all Mossie roles other than altitude bomber or photo recon.

The radar equipped Mossie nightfighters were built in response to the continued German night raids on British cities, not as a night time escort for the British bombers.  In what I consider to be one of the biggest blunders of the war, the RAF didn't clear the Mossie radar equipped night fighters to operate over German held territory until 1944, by which time Bomber Command had paid a fearsome toll in blood.  Once the NF.Mk XIIIs, NF.Mk XIXs and NF.Mk XXXs were hunting German night fighters in late 1944 the Bomber Command losses plumeted as the German nightfighter groups suddenly found themselves the hunted.

The Mosquito NF.Mk XXX was undoubtedly the finest nightfighter of WWII.

[toadkill]

karnaak, i welcome your info, because it is only that info, and i take it into account (ill learn from it). & i thank you for not just being a total !@# like ack-ack. he just wont learn from anything. reminds me of the "typical american" (no offence to anyone) who is "right" no matter what. sorry ack, but i have a large hatred for people who are closed minded.

[Hornet33]

In referance to the 20mm equipped hellcat without radome pic. You keep harping on the "fact" that it must be a night fighter because it doesn't have camera ports so it can't be a 5P. I NEVER CLAIMED IT WAS A 5P. You keep going on about the 5P. Who cares. Some were armed, some weren't. I'm talking about the ENTIRE FLEET (over 12,000) of fighters here. ALMOST ALL F6F-5(series) fighters were able to take those cannons. That pic is a F6F-5 Hellcat FIGHTER with 20mm's installed at the FACTORY. I'm past the whole N/P had the cannons because my research indicates that regular hellcat fighters had the things also.

You say that no/none/00000 F6F fighters flew in combat with that gun option.

I say that Grumman designed the planes to do so, and manufactured many of them with this option, because that is what the documentaion says.

Show me credible evidince from a reliable source that backs up your claims and I'll belive you. So far you have provided nothing other than your personal opinons and asumptions. Don't show me pics, show me RECORDS of historical value. I know that 99.9% of the pics on the web show 6 .50 cals on the planes but with over 12,000 planes being built and only a couple HUNDRED pics to look at, and allot of those pics are of the SAME airframe. You can't really use that as evidence can you???

I'm going to sit on this for awhile now because I do have a research request into the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum on this topic. I'll wait and see what they send me. Of course if the information is not to your liking you'll probably aurgue that their information is wrong too.