Have you seen this Chinese pilot video?

[Dowding]

No Toad, you don't get what I'm saying. This isn't Chinese culture at work here - because that would be democratic. No one is excusing the Chinese at all, certainly not because of a 'culture difference'.

It's a small minority who hold ultimate power - the people of China have no say in any policy, either domestic or foreign. The democratic party of China is incarcerated wholesale, dissidents are tortured and killed, and uprisings are put down brutally and without compassion.

This isn't a clash between Chinese culture and the US - it's a clash between a communistic clique and the US government. It's political rather than cultural.

You say they have made themselves a special case. I say that that is the way it is - they are an anti-democracy state with a severe sense of historical injustice. You can't change that, no matter how much you want to.

Pongo - who said anything about not being allowed to 'get mad'? I just don't see how a bunch of jingoistic crap is going to solve anything.  



[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 04-08-2001).]

[paintmaw]

So your saying Russian is a free country ? And they never bomb civilians (borodo must be too young to remember that Super Power called Afganistan).
Chinese people can't be judged by the actions of their government , same for Russia or any other country .

this post is not ment to be a personal attack  

[Fatty]

Depends on how liberally you apply jingoistic, Dowding.  I don't think any (well, save a few frothing at the mouth   are even remotely considering any kind of military response.

On the other hand the loss of any or all of the following will indeed be a severe blow to the party in control, and imo at least some if not all needs to come about so they'll consider it as a potential downside next time:

Loss of free electronic trade with US.
Loss of all around trade with the US.
Failure in applicate to WTO.
Failure in bid to host olympics.
Increased US/Taiwan trade.
Incresed US/Taiwan military exchange.
Decreased US/China military exchange.

[Toad]

Dowding,

To me this was the point of the first half or your post:

"Would the US people be criticizing the US pilot, which is the reasonable thing to do? I doubt it."

My response is primarily directed there. Your hypothesis wasn't an apples to apples comparison to begin with.

Beyond that, if a US fighter pilot had done what Wang Wei had previously done, he most likely wouldn't be flying intercepts anymore.
Once, if no one gets hurt, you get disciplined. The second time you get reassigned to a desk.

Secondly, when we DO make a mistake, at least we admit it. The Iran Air downing is an example.

So yes, I think we'd admit the mistake, return the plane and crew ASAP.

They've been allowed to make themselves a "special case" in the court of world opinion.

The world is going to pay someday for letting that slide.



[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 04-08-2001).]

[TheWobble]

If the world were a 3rd grade classroom, China would be the Rude little redhaed kid that puts his bugers everwhere and blames other kids when he pees on the coatrack    

[pzvg]

a point if I may,
question, What is 248 feet long, painted haze grey, and currently rusting at a pier in Wonson harbor?
We will eventually get the crew back, as soon as they get tired of the game, don't hold your breath about the plane.

------------------
pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"

[Yeager]

Boroda who are you kidding  

You guys are scared toejamless of the CHI-COMS and for good reason.  There is no ocean between you and them  

Y

[Maverick]

Boroda,

Want to discus the Chinese Communists party feeling for their people. Think Tieneman Square. Think armed troops surrounding then shooting unarmed citizens. Think imprisoning people for asking or speaking out for a change in their government. BTW think trials closed to press and observers when said "enemies of the state" are "tried" and sentenced to prison or executed.

Now as to the bombing incident. Yep a Navy pilot did drop a bomb and killed some of the observers. It was a tragic mistake. The military recognizes there are always some casualties in training. They try to avoid it but it is the nature of the profession to be dangerous.

As to the embassy bombing. Yep it happened and we didn't blame the Chinese for causing it, like they are doing in this situation.

Now please get a life, "commissar".

Mav

[Argent]

Just to show you im generally of the thought that China isnt that nice.

Think also the 'one child per family' policy, and the results of its stern upholding by the authorities.

[-lynx-]

Woohoo - it's Monday and Easter is just a few days away (Hello everyone )
 

You guys are scared toejamless of the CHI-COMS and for good reason. There is no ocean between you and them

For your information - they had a few "go"s in the past (not so distant) every time the result was "scratch a few thousand Chinese troops". They also "had a go" at Vietnam with no success.

 

borodo must be too young to remember that Super Power called Afganistan

Vietnam rings any bells? At least, SU didn't fake an attack on their own destroyer - faking an invitation from a "democratic government" was good enough... Same duration, same combat losses ratio, same result - hmmm... They still killing each other in droves over there.

As for Chinese mother writing a letter to the President - what a load of BS, of course she didn't write it. No more than the President writing his own speaches. The difference would be that it's up to him whether to deliver them - she didn't have much choice...

[fd ski]

as for that plane landing... by international law they could have shot it out of the sky and still be in clear.
It IS a MILITARY aircraft landing without premission at the military instalation...

We're lucky that those 24 are still alive.


------------------
Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF

Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998

Northolt Wing Headquarters

[miko2d]

 

Originally posted by fd ski:
as for that plane landing... by international law they could have shot it out of the sky and still be in clear.
It IS a MILITARY aircraft landing without premission at the military instalation...
 We're lucky that those 24 are still alive.

 Were they in contact with chinese air-controllers? American controllers and superiors? Were they brodcasting "Mayday"?
 Doesn't any plane/ship broadcasting "Mayday" (M'aidez) is supposed to get permission to land according to some international law?
 Did they definitely not have permission? Show me a crewmen saying so or even better, play a "Black Box" recording.

 According to the press, our diplomats are not allowed to discuss those issues when they meet the prisoners. They want US to appologize without having any information other then provided by chinese. That seem suspicios to me.

 Boroda,
 If there was a reliable way to deliver ordnance on target, there would not be any need for traning. We killed our own people in training and combat when I was serving in Soviet Army - of course it was not published in newspapers, so I only know about cases I witnessed.
 I know the same (friendly fire, not concealment) happens in Israeli army and in US army - you can read about it in our newspapers.
 How sure can you be that it doesn't happen in Chinese army that you would put your name on it?

 Dowding,
 I am sure that if an american pilot screwd up, most americans would admit that possibility. We know our military arn't unfallible.
 I am also sure we would have interviews with  all involved people or at least recordings - crews, ground controllers, message logs, etc.
 About a "revolution" in russia 10 years ago.  The people who ruled before set it in motion (M. Gorbachev, B. Yeltshin - all communists, as well as V. Putin) and still rule there.
 
 miko

[Dowding]

Toad, exactly how would you have stopped China 'sliding'? Military intervention during the Popular revolution? I can't see what you are proposing other than this. As for the US admitting mistakes - I don't buy that. The US acts like any other nation (including the UK), to tune of 'plausible deniability'. If you can deny it, do so.

The US were open about Iran air incident because they had absolutely no alternative - it was too open an act to deny.

As an example, I recently read 'Excursion to Hell' about the Falklands liberation. It is written by a Para who was right in the action. He details how US mercenaries fighting for the Argentinians were shot dead by British forces to spare the blushes of Reagan and the 'special relationship' enjoyed by Thatcher and Ronald at that time. To this day, the US denies that any US citizens were fighting for the 'Argies'. It does this because it can, since there is only eye-wtiness status from British soldiers to substantiate the claim. But it seems to me there is too many corrobarating accounts from different units (e.g the sworn rivals the Paras and the Marines, who would barely communicate with each other, nevermind fabricate an entire 'incident').

Fatty - the US needs those markets in China. Think of all the consumables US multi-nationals can sell them, from cars to refridgerators.

All those businessmen who lobbied hard to get the markets opened aren't going to be too pleased if they close.

Personally, I'm in two minds about this. On the one hand, a free market might lead to reform just for the sake of maximising investment. But on the other hand, the Chinese communist party should not be given any kind of respectibility/legitimacy through international acceptance (even though it is financially motivated).

Argent - China has severe over-population problems. It has absolutely no choice but to impose some sort of limit on child-birth.

[miko2d]

   

Originally posted by Dowding:
The US acts like any other nation (including the UK), to tune of 'plausible deniability'. If you can deny it, do so.

Americans are humans. Each one can screw up and try to hide it. As a society we have a free press and other means to insure the truth comes out. Do they always work? Does anything?

The US were open about Iran air incident because they had absolutely no alternative - it was too open an act to deny.
 How was it more open?
 Let chinese release the crew and the black box and we will admit anything there is to admit.

 He details how US mercenaries fighting for the Argentinians were shot dead by British forces to spare the blushes of Reagan and the 'special relationship' enjoyed by Thatcher and Ronald at that time. To this day, the US denies that any US citizens were fighting for the 'Argies'.
 I could not venture a reason Argentinians decided to use mercenaries despite having their own army they are very proud of. Just imagine - "General, your troops are going to screw up, so we will hire some outside help... How do you like that?". Of course I long forsworn trying to set limits to human stupidity.
 So freaking what? There is a very large choice of foreign employments that a US citizen can undertake without jeopardizing his citizenship or involving his government in any way.
 Why would Reagan care to deny anything or to blush? How would he know if any american mecenary was there? They do not file a plan whan they go aboard. They might well have used aliases there.
 Does anyone in US blames your government every time a Brit is caught smuggling drugs into US? Why should we?
 Even if there were mercenaries, why would anyone blame US government?
  Did not Argentina blame US for providing Brits with intelligence during that operation?

Fatty - the US needs those markets in China. Think of all the consumables US multi-nationals can sell them, from cars to refridgerators.
 That is not true. US has a huge trade imbalance in favor of China. They take away our jobs and sell us products, some manufactured by inmate labor.

miko

[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 04-09-2001).]

[Toad]

Dowding,

Make excuses for the Chinese all you like. They may have a 5000 year traceable history but look where it has led them. At present they are probably the largest threat to world peace on the planet. The prevailing opinion seems to be that the rest of the nations have to humor them because they are some sort of "special case". You yourself have made this argument.

All I've said is that one day I think we'll all pay for taking that view.

I hope I'm wrong on that.

As for the rest of it, I think the US press does a pretty good job of airing issues. It may be that the government is more forthcoming because of our press but that's a collateral issue. One of the benefits of the First Amendment. Point is, the facts get out, more so perhaps than any other "major power" type country.

Don't expect a US-o-phobe like you to agree though.