Author Topic: Band of Brothers.... Did Spears do it?  (Read 1317 times)

Offline Seagoon

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2396
      • http://www.providencepca.com
Dick Winters Answers Your Question
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2005, 10:59:12 AM »
Article from American History Magazine

Dick Winters' Reflections on His Band of Brothers, D-Day and Leadership

Another character who features prominently in the story of Easy Company is Captain Ron Speirs, who took over Easy Company outside of Bastogne when Lieutenant Norman Dike froze in the field during an assault and Winters turned to Speirs and commanded him to "take the company in!" Two of the stories that have circulated about Speirs were that he shot some German prisoners in Normandy and, later, one of his own sergeants.

Speirs was very effective. He got the job done. But if you were around and talked to the men who worked under him, he was never liked.

Now, he could turn around and walk away and talk to someone at my level and be a completely different guy. He could take orders. He was very likable.

The stories about him are true. When I first heard, I was speechless. What he did was unbelievable, inexcusable. If you talk to somebody in today's Army, they would say, well, how come he wasn't court-martialed? Well, you needed every man you had. Those guys that goofed up, didn't measure up, you couldn't just get rid of them. You needed the body, because if you lose that body, then somebody else has to shoulder twice the burden. You needed every body you could get. At Foy, he was the first officer I saw when I turned around. It could have been anybody, but it was Speirs. I didn't ask, "OK, would you mind taking over?" No, I just turned around, saw him and said take over. It was just a roll of the dice that he was standing there when I needed someone.

Through the course of his campaigns with Easy Company, Winters developed a great affection for his men and his men for him. He led them and, despite his affection, commanded them.

You maintain close relationships with your men, but not friendship. You have mutual respect for one another, but yet you have to hold yourself aloof, to a degree. If you are too friendly, it works in a negative way when you need to discipline your men. You can have your men's respect and friendship, but there is a point where you have to rise above this relationship and make sure they are following the orders that are in effect for everybody. In leading groups effectively, you have to rise above camaraderie. You have to be fair to everyone. Everyone must know that they are treated equally.

Winters acknowledges different styles of leadership and cites the ability of men to lead through fear, such as Speirs and E Company's first commander, Herbert Sobel. He asserts, however, that the most effective leader will have quiet self-confidence and self-assurance that ultimately commands the respect of the men.

In Sobel's case it was in training, and in Speirs' case it was in combat. It is impossible to imagine what would have been the result if we had been led into battle by Sobel. He had driven the men to the point of mutiny, and, more important, he had lost their respect. If he had been in command, more men would have died in battle. Speirs had the men's respect. He had my respect. We both knew he would get the job done.

If you can, find that peace within yourself, that peace and quiet and confidence that you can pass on to others, so that they know that you are honest and you are fair and will help them, no matter what, when the chips are down. I was never one for officers' parties. And in my diary I would keep asking myself why am I sitting here when the others are out at parties. I am at the Barnes home studying my manuals. I'm reading and educating myself. Getting ready. But before the evening is over, I will pick up and read a novel before I go to sleep. Now, a good guy would have been out at all those parties. The pressure of being a good fellow oftentimes brings people to what? You can be a good fellow, get along with everyone and not be a good leader. Sure, I was a good fellow during the day. I joked and palled-around with the other officers, but then in the evening I would go home and I could be myself.

I was fortunate enough to fall in with the Barnes family. They were wonderful people. For the nine months prior to the invasion, I was there and studied, developing my own personality, my own personal perspective on command. Most of the other officers never had that. It was a chance for self-analysis. If you listen and pay attention, you will find that your own self-consciousness will tell you if you are getting off track. Nobody will have to tell you that what you are doing is incorrect or ineffective. If you take advantage of opportunities for self-reflection, and honestly look at yourself, you will be able to be a better leader.

At age 86 Dick Winters lives in Hershey with his wife of 56 years, Ethel. He receives hundreds of letters a month, many of which come addressed simply to "Major Richard Winters, Hershey, Pa.," and he attempts to respond to each one, with Ethel's help.
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline FUNKED1

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6866
      • http://soldatensender.blogspot.com/
Band of Brothers.... Did Spears do it?
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2005, 11:34:13 AM »
Thank God Easy Company didn't hold the prisoners in Cuba or subject them to frat hazing rituals and nude photgraphy with ugly women.  Now that would have been a terrible atrocity!  TORCHAR!!!  FDR = HITLAR!!!

Offline cpxxx

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2707
Band of Brothers.... Did Spears do it?
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2005, 11:36:47 AM »
Prisoners were always been killed whatever the army. Stephen Ambrose mentioned it several times in his books. Many books on war mention the practice. I remember one scene in band of brothers were a private was detailed to take back some prisoners. Winters emptied his rifle and left him one round.  'Now' he said 'If you shoot any of the prisoners the others will kill you'.  

It happened in every army and every war.  In the Irish civil war, Irish army soldiers took some rebel prisoners, tied them to a landmine and detonated it.  In late WW2, one bad habit the Germans had nearly always got them killed. They would put up token resistance when the Allies approached sometimes killing a man or two. Then promptly attempt to surrender when a full scale assault was about to start. That didn't always work. Seeing one of your comrades die that late in the war always made people mad.

Old soldier always say they  saw it happen or heard of it. But of course they were never involved. ???

Spears probably did shoot prisoners. Like many before and after him. I daresay its happens even today.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2005, 11:38:54 AM by cpxxx »

Offline Yeager

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10167
Band of Brothers.... Did Spears do it?
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2005, 01:43:07 PM »
That Winters is one heck of a fella!  So, did Winters say that Spears was guilty of murdering POWs?  He seemed to suggest that in the copy/paste but was not specific.

And Yes, in a battle, a place where men are actively seeking each other out, to kill each other, POW status is damned risky...
"If someone flips you the bird and you don't know it, does it still count?" - SLIMpkns

Offline nirvana

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5640
Band of Brothers.... Did Spears do it?
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2005, 04:44:43 PM »
Where do you keep all the POWs that you catch?  The Pacific was a good example of this.  They couldn't keep them all, so they hosed them.  It happened.


Oh and i'm undecided if Spears did it, great series though.  Which is better, book or mini series?
Who are you to wave your finger?

Offline Gh0stFT

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1736
Band of Brothers.... Did Spears do it?
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2005, 05:17:39 PM »
dont get caught, safe the last bullet for yourself! ;)
The statement below is true.
The statement above is false.

Offline Hangtime

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10148
Band of Brothers.... Did Spears do it?
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2005, 05:19:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
That Winters is one heck of a fella!  So, did Winters say that Spears was guilty of murdering POWs?  He seemed to suggest that in the copy/paste but was not specific.

And Yes, in a battle, a place where men are actively seeking each other out, to kill each other, POW status is damned risky...


"The stories about him are true. When I first heard, I was speechless. What he did was unbelievable, inexcusable. If you talk to somebody in today's Army, they would say, well, how come he wasn't court-martialed?" [/b]

I guess no matter what, folks will just believe what they want to believe. It's certain Winters didn't see him shoot the POW's or his own sergeant, but there's no doubt Winters is saying the stories are true.
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline crowMAW

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1179
Band of Brothers.... Did Spears do it?
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2005, 05:24:15 PM »
When I watched Band of Brothers and Saving Private Ryan, I was really moved by the incidences where prisoners were shot.  I understand the loss of control during and immediately after extreme stress.

But I wonder what I would have done should I have seen such behavior...or even had I been in command of troops behaving that way.

In Ryan, you could see the disgust and dissapointment displayed in Tom Hank's character...but the fictional character did nothing.

What would you do in that situation?  I understand "needing the body", but do you just chalk it up to "war is hell" and accept it?

Offline Hangtime

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10148
Band of Brothers.... Did Spears do it?
« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2005, 05:31:42 PM »
War is hell, kid.

Sorry to sound condecending, but thats a simple fact. It happens. It ain't pretty. It's part of the landscape, part of the expediency of battle and survival.

It's the real deal.
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline DREDIOCK

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17773
Band of Brothers.... Did Spears do it?
« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2005, 05:32:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by nirvana


Oh and i'm undecided if Spears did it, great series though.  Which is better, book or mini series?


Both are great.
In the book I dont remember them mentioning  Spears doing any killing of POWs
I do however seem to remember a story of Grneir  while running to deliver a message shoointg a German with a 45 in mid stride  trying to surrender.
But we all know Garneir had his reasons.

The story of the one bullet to escort the POWs is also in the book.

On a personal note I've hear several WWII Vets over the years also tell me about being ordered to deliver POWs to the rear and to be back in 10 min.
And what that order really ment

Seems to be a running  theme and not at all an unusual story

I may be wrong but I seem to remember hearing that the orders given to the first two waves in the Normandy lands were "No prisoners"

Would make sence. What were they supposed to do with them. And they didnt exactly have the manpower to  spare to guard them.

They had other places to go and things to do
Death is no easy answer
For those who wish to know
Ask those who have been before you
What fate the future holds
It ain't pretty

Offline Hangtime

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10148
Band of Brothers.... Did Spears do it?
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2005, 05:39:53 PM »
I read a book a long time back, made a big impact in that I'd never seen the 'big picture' so well distilled into the 'little picture' that a squad or platoon sees as their war.

It's fiction, but rings so true to some of my experiences that it was downright scary.

Try Nelson DeMille's 'Word of Honor'.

Maybe it'll help someone else understand how 'war crimes' happen.
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline rpm

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15661
Band of Brothers.... Did Spears do it?
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2005, 06:18:14 PM »
If he didn't shoot the prisoners, what were the Thompson shots? Spears carried a Thompson. Circumstancal evidence suggests he did it.
My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives.
Stay thirsty my friends.

Offline DREDIOCK

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17773
Band of Brothers.... Did Spears do it?
« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2005, 07:35:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by rpm
If he didn't shoot the prisoners, what were the Thompson shots? Spears carried a Thompson. Circumstancal evidence suggests he did it.


If you remember correctly The never showed he killed prisoners untill later when (cant remember his name) was telling the story in the foxhole.
But remember. He Never actually saw it.  He only heard the gunfire
Death is no easy answer
For those who wish to know
Ask those who have been before you
What fate the future holds
It ain't pretty

Offline Seagoon

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2396
      • http://www.providencepca.com
Band of Brothers.... Did Spears do it?
« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2005, 09:15:54 PM »
Hi Guys,

Apparently Speir's stepson wrote that when he expressed concern regarding the "allegations" in Ambrose's book & the series, Speir's replied "I’m 81 years old, what can they do to me now?”

All in all, given the character of the man, the uniformity of the reports, the fact that he did in fact shoot one of his own non-coms (confirmed), and the willingness of all who fought with him to believe he was capable of doing it. I'd tend to believe the report that he shot the prisoners. From what I've read by Dick Winters to date, he was neither gullible or credulous in the least. He was sure he did it.

Some other anecdotal evidence: (BTW I am not surprised in the least that there were no "witnesses" who wanted to testify during the investigation, the practice of "ratting someone out" in the military used to be absolutely taboo regardless of what you thought of them)

This one was posted on the "Wild Bill Guarnere Forum" (WildBillGuarnere.com)

Apr 7 2003
By cd5150

I asked Malarkey about what he knew regarding Speirs and all of the stories. Hopefully this subject hasn't been overly dealt with, but for all of our new folks I thought I would pass on to them an excerpt from my most recent letter from Don:

"In the HBO series he is pictured in an incident shooting down prisoners, one of whom I had talked to. I do not know if that occured. When we attacked Carentan and were on the outskirts of the city after crossing the Douve River estuary we heard a lot of fire behind us in "D" company's ranks which included Ron Speirs. When we yelled back through the ranks the response was that Speirs had gunned down 8 prisoners after giving them a cigarette. This was investigated by Division with none of the witnesses verifying it.

Several days after the capture of Carentan the Battallion moved out of the city to expand the front. About a mile and a half we ran into a Panzer task force coming in to retake the city. A defensive front was established with "E" company in the middle, "D" company on the left, and "F" company on the right. During the early stage of the encounter Speirs ordered a squad leader to attack across an open field toward farm buildings about 200 yards away. The Sgt. made some response that Speirs interpreted as disobeying a direct order. Speirs pulled his Tommy gun up and shot him. This was investigated by Division and members of the squad verified the Sgt. had refused a direct order."


- SEAGOON
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline Nefarious

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15858
Band of Brothers.... Did Spears do it?
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2005, 09:23:26 PM »
I think he did. In the movie.

IRL, I dont know.
There must also be a flyable computer available for Nefarious to do FSO. So he doesn't keep talking about it for eight and a half hours on Friday night!