Doghouse plot comparison site...need your input/help

[Fry]

Hi everyone!  Well, after finding virtually no information online about AH2's aircraft performance (I'm not talking about the easy stuff like top speed or low stall speeds), I've decided to shut up and try and do something about it, hehe.

I've created a doghouse performance comparison website that I hope will eventually develope into something that the AH community can find useful.  Once you've selected your aircraft and pressed the "Compare their Doghouse plots!" button, you'll be presented with a .jpg of a doghouse plot of those two aircraft....along with some key performance data at the bottom of the page.

Right now, I'm simply using pictures of some plots I've copied from Badz/Badboy's .pdf's as those are the only plots I could find for this demonstration.  I don't plan on using them for the site once it's in it's final form, but I hope I can get some REAL AH2 data from HT and Co., where I can make my own plots.  Badz/Badboy, I hope you don't mind

The only aircraft comparisons that I have set up using those demo plots are:

F4U-1C/F6F-5
F4U-1C/P-51D
F6F-5/Spit Mk IX
Spit Mk IX/P-51D
Spit MkV/Spit Mk IX

Please feel free to compare those aircraft and let me know if you think such a website is a good idea.  And if so, please offer any suggestions on how I could improve it.  Please be gentle as I'm new to coding scripts in HTML:D

One other thing, unless I can get some data from AH, there's really no use in pursuing this.  So if folks really think this might be beneficial, please let AH know on these boards and emails

Thanks much!

[Badboy]

Fry, you appear to have deleted the titles, my name and the copyright notices that were originally part of those images. I don't understand why you would do that and I can't agree to them being used in that condition under any circumstances. Please remove the images from your site, I'm sure you can find other suitable place markers.

Badboy

[Fry]

Originally posted by Badboy
Fry, you appear to have deleted the titles, my name and the copyright notices that were originally part of those images. I don't understand why you would do that and I can't agree to them being used in that condition under any circumstances. Please remove the images from your site, I'm sure you can find other suitable place markers.

Badboy

Sorry about that, I stand corrected.  I didn't mean any harm or ill intent and I even mentioned that they're yours in every post I've made about these.  I only needed something that looked like a doghouse plot there temporarily until I get some data to make my on...if AH would give it to me.

I'll remove them right away.

I sincerely apologize for offending you or your work in any manner.

[Fry]

Oh, Badboy, one other thing I need to mention aside for apologizing once again.  I didn't intentionally delete the titles or the copyright notices as I just did a quick 2 second cut and copy of just the plot themselves....in fact, on one of the plots you can even see the top part of your name and the copyright.  I have no excuse other than being very naive about the legal issues concerning copyrights etc.

I just wanted to make it clear to you that I had no intention of ever claiming these as my own or to defame you or the work you've contributed over the years to AH.

[Gianlupo]

Fry, I think yours is a great idea. I always wanted to see EM diagrams for AH planes since I read for the first time Badboy's column (great work, Badboy, I'm really fond of what you and Andy Bush wrote at Simhq, but... no more new columns! ).

Unfortunately, I can't be of any help in drawing these diagrams, I have no idea of the formulae needed for them. I think you know this thread, there are some valuable data there and some suggestion by HiTech about how to draw a doghouse plot (I would have tried by myself, but, as said, I   don't know where to start from), and, if I understood correctly, Soda said that he was going to try and draw some EM diagram. Maybe you can contact Kweassa and Soda and ask them if they can help you.

[Spatula]

Hi, great idea! However i think if you were to do a static HTML page for each of the possible plane permitations, you will be here till the next milenia...

Why not approach HTC to get the raw data figures and store them in a database and use PHP or ASP etc with some graph plotting module to dynamically plot the comparisons? Would save a lot of time and maintanence hassle.

PS - im not trying to belittle your effort, i think its a great idea.

[Gianlupo]

Yep, a dynamic web page is the best thing... or, if you're able, even a little program like the ones I saw for IL2 planes... (you may find them at http://www.airwarfare.com).

Anyway, it will be a lot of work. The EM diagram for a plane change depending on a lot of variables, at least fuel loading and altitude... so, to give a representative picture of what the plane can do, you have to provide data for the four different fuel loading at, at least, 5 typical altitudes... so at least 20 different diagrams for each planes... you'll definitely need some help!

I don't know if HTC will give you raw data... but I'd say it's worth trying!

Hold on, Fry!

[Max]

Fry did you search around at http://www.netaces.org?

DmdMax

[Gianlupo]

Good idea, but, unfortunately, Netaces still has old data...

[Robert]

How about this:


RWY

[Gianlupo]

Nice. But it lacks part of the house!   Did you use Kweassa's data to plot that line?

EDIT: I wasn't that smart to immediately check the picture's address... Nice site, Robert. Can you build a simulator for me, too?

[Soda]

I actually created quite the monster of a spreadsheet using Kweassa's raw data and it produces Doghouse diagrams for instantaneous performance.  My understanding of the sustained calculations wasn't quite sufficient to derrive that line (weight/thrust/drag numbers were a bit hard to come by).  I can't claim to have distributed it but I might be able to post a couple of examples of the graphs if people are interested.  I can't vouch for their accuracy, there was a lot of "learning" going on when I created them but they seem to have come out reasonably.

[Gianlupo]

You can bet we're interested! It's since Kweassa posted his data that I eagerly wait for some news from you!

Can't you ask HiTech for help with the sustained turn rates? IIRC he posted something in Kweassa's thread...

[FTJR]

Soda, I'd be interested. Thanks.

[Soda]

Ok, try this link.

AH2 Spitfire Mk V EM Diagram

Now, I don't have all the labels on it but essentially it's a standard EM diagram though calculated through the raw data Kweassa provided.  The radius lines are (left to right) at 400 through 900 feet while the G's are only shown from 2 through 6.  The yellow dot on the left is the actual Kweassa derrived point but it doesn't quite follow on the calculated line due to some calculation rounding issues I was having.  The small red triangle is the max level speed so anything to the right of that is not sustainable from engine thrust.  Peak instantaneous in this case was 216mph and 34.716 deg/sec at a radius of 522.95 ft and 6G.  The chart itself is mapped every 1mph to an arbitrary 507mph.

I never got the sustained curve line on it, I think I know the theory but turning a single measured point (from Kweassa's tests) into a excess thrust related curve was a bit beyond me (plus I really ran out of time to work on it).  The spreadsheet seemed to work pretty well though but I can't claim total accuracy since it was judged on a single point of data, the rest was simply extrapolated.

Enjoy, comments/questions welcome.  I could pop in the numbers to another aircraft and see what it turns out if you'd like.  Remember, the data Kweassa put together is at 75% internal fuel so in some cases these aircraft are pretty heavy so they don't match up against Badboys diagrams all that well (and Badboys were for AH1 not AH2).