Be Ye Men of Valour

[Downtown]

Toad, sorry, thank you for sharing the historic quotes of Winston Churchill.

I get aggrivated when someone take what could be a discussion of Winston Chruchill and turns it into a discussion of Americas current foibles.

If you don't like the current crop of politicians get out and vote.  Better yet run for office and do better.

Clinton was elected President by a majority of people who got off their tulips and voted.  Now people bash Clinton because he got a blow-job in the oval office and lied about it.  Kennedy did too, and he is practically sanctified in America.

George H. Bush was the director of the CIA and a Pilot in WWII.  HE KILLED PEOPLE!

Ronald Regan was an informer to the FBI concerning members of the Media who were or at one time may have been members of the LEGAL communist party of America.

Nixon also lied in office, had people break into the Deomcratic Party National Headquarters to plant listening devices.

Ford was on the Warren Commision.

Eisenhower was the Supreme Allied Commander in Europe during WWII.  He approved many of the early assasination attempts on Castro and the Bay of Pigs invasion.

How far back do you want me to go on Presidential Skeletons in their closets?  I don't think Clinton is a great man, but he is president, and the economy is fairly stable.

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"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
    lkbrown1@tir.com    
 http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!

[Hangtime]

With yah Downtown.. Nice one.  

Hang

[Toad]

Well, Downtown, for the sake of argument alone.....<and this is a nice one   >

How many _Pro-Abortion_ folks do all those things?

Probably not many either. Their solution, instead, is to terminate the pregnancy at some stage, right?

I return to my previous question, that each of us has to answer for him/herself.

"So when is a human a human that should be given society's protection? Moment of conception? Moment the fetus can stay alive outside the womb, given the local medical capability? Normal birth at term?"

Damn tough question, with no clear easy answer, isn't it?

We abhorred it when the Nazi's gassed newborns along with the adults, right? From their point of view, though, they were just ridding the world of some mongrels.

These were human lives, right?

So, where do we, the new enlightened society, draw the line?

Or, because the world is a crappy place full of orphans, deformed children, single mothers, narcotics, deadbeat dads, mongrels etc., etc., do we then allow state-subsidized termination of pregnancies?

Further, assuming we do that, at what point in a pregnancy should the state say "OK..wait..this one is so far along that it's already a human." Or should the state have any say at all? Is a fetus ever a citizen?

These are tough, tough questions to me.

I never said I was against all abortion. In fact, I never delineated my personal inner beliefs at all.

I simply said this IS a major question that NineZ originally raised. It bears directly on the previous "LW morality" thread, I think.

"When is human life human life?"

And we all must reach that decision for ourselves. I'm not trying to force mine on anyone.

Nor would I expect YOU to force yours on me.

What I would expect is that BOTH sides of this question are open to different, legitimate conclusions.

Those who trumpet "NO ABORTION, NONE!" are just as blind as those who trumpet "ANY ABORTION, ANYTIME!".

But that's just my opinion.  

[Karnak]

Thanks DownTown.  I was starting to feel isolated in my belief that this is a personal choice.  I personally would want to have the child and do the best I could to raise her/him with her/his mother.  I do not however believe that I have the right to force my feelings on anybody else.  Respect my liberties and I respect your liberties.  Frankly I'll respect your liberties even if you don't respect mine, I just might not like you very much for it.

Waxer, sisu is a Finnish word that translates roughly as "What must be done will be done, regardless of the cost".  I use it in salute to my Finnish heritage.

Sisu
-Karnak

[1776]

Now, why is it only the women gets to make the "life or death" decision?  Shouldn't the father have a say?  

[Toad]

Ahhh-ooooooo GAH!

Ahhh-ooooooo GAH!

DIVE! DIVE!

RIG FOR DEPTH CHARGE!

1776, you really jumped into the frying pan now!

 

[Toad]

I personally find the following absolutely disgusting and I almost didn't post it. Still, I think it also bears on the whole issue we've been discussing about the LW's part in the regime and also makes me see NineZ's point in a different light than I did at first. Plus, it's history. I think we do well not to forget.

There's a bunch of more to this article and other information at: http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/timeline/euthanasia.htm

"In October of 1939 amid the turmoil of the outbreak of war Hitler ordered widespread "mercy killing" of the sick and disabled.

Code named "Aktion T 4," the Nazi euthanasia program to eliminate "life unworthy of life" at first focused on newborns and very young children. Midwives and doctors were required to register children up to age three who showed symptoms of mental retardation, physical deformity, or other symptoms included on a questionnaire from the Reich Health Ministry.

A decision on whether to allow the child to live was then made by three medical experts solely on the basis of the questionnaire, without any examination and without reading any medical records.

Each expert placed a + mark in red pencil or - mark in blue pencil under the term "treatment" on a special form. A red plus mark meant a decision to kill the child. A blue minus sign meant meant a decision against killing. Three plus symbols resulted in a euthanasia warrant being issued and the transfer of the child to a 'Children's Specialty Department' for death by injection or gradual starvation.

The decision had to be unanimous. In cases where the decision was not unanimous the child was kept under observation and another attempt would be made to get a unanimous decision.

The Nazi euthanasia program quickly expanded to include older disabled children and adults. Hitler's decree of October, 1939, typed on his personal stationery and back dated to Sept. 1, enlarged "the authority of certain physicians to be designated by name in such manner that persons who, according to human judgment, are incurable can, upon a most careful diagnosis of their condition of sickness, be accorded a mercy death." "

Made me think more about this whole thread; as I said there's even more to it than this.

[StSanta]

 

Now, why is it only the women gets to make the "life or death" decision? Shouldn't the father have a say?

He does have a say. However, it is up to the woman to decide whether to listen to him or not  .

Essentially, the male donates some sperm. The process of gestation takes place as we all know in the woman. While abortion is an ugly thing (I think pro-choice people agree on this) the right to self determination is the issue. I do not believe that I should be forced to carry a parasitic embryo (there I go again, ain't I good? ) for the sole reason of someone else wanting me to. Not to talk about being forced to go down a future I have no intention of accepting. Then, of course, there is the well being of the potential child.

Let's face it; women have been getting a bad hand for most of history. The least we can do is accept their autonomy over their bodies.

Which brings us back to that Bush fellow. Him in power, half the Supreme Court judges elected by him, that other very conservative chap as vice president. Some issues might change rapidly, but then again, he probably has 8 years (I've noticed that presidents in the US tend to sit the full two terms) to complete his mission of morality.  

Heheheee

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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"

[Downtown]

The maternal instinct is also much stronger than the paternal instinct.  It has been demonstrated far too often in my opinion that a father will abandon his offspring, far more often than a mother will.

Even if a woman doesn't want the father of her child involved in the rearing of a child, he can still support the mother (ergo the child) either financially, or be ready and willing if she ever needs assistance.

I know a lot more pro-choice folks that do drug counciling and such, than those who spend their free time at the abortion clinics protesting.  My folks are pro-choice and run a foster care facility for special needs children.

Hypocrites just bug me.  Like I said I really am against abortion, but I hate that 44% of my income is taken away to support people who don't work and many of those people are capable of working.  We need to work on curing some of our other ills before we are close enough to nirvana.

And I don't think that people have a right to condemn a child to a life of pain and suffering, which is about garunteed for an unwanted child.

It isn't fair and I don't like it, but I am not willing to force my morals and beliefs on other, and I resent others trying to force theirs upon me, or anyone else.

Get off the Abortion clinic protest picket line and go work in a day care center, adopt some kids, Help make it better, don't make it worse!

I don't know how many pro-choice people do the things I have listed above, obviously not enough.

I am not qualified to say when a human life begins, were I GOD I would have that qualification, since I am not, I can't say.  Let everyone look into their hearts and make that determination for themselves.  IF you think they are gonna make the choice for termination, offer to assist them in the care and nurture of the child, offer to adopt it.  Don't say "Oh, your evil, oh your bad, oh, your a murderer!"  That isn't helping.

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"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
    lkbrown1@tir.com    
 http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!

[Toad]

 

Originally posted by Downtown:
I am not qualified to say when a human life begins, were I GOD I would have that qualification, since I am not, I can't ...Don't say "Oh, your evil, oh your bad, oh, your a murderer!"  That isn't helping.

Obviously, I'm having trouble explaining myself, but this is a difficult subject. Due to that "LW" thread, it happens that we are relating it to a clear atrocity in WW2.

SOCIETY has to decide "when human life begins".

Nazi society took the approach that some apparently human life is actually "sub-human" and thus "fair game." The world rejected this opinion.

Our current outlook is different. We've all heard of the news stories of the young girl that gives birth and dumps the newborn in the trash. Society does not accept this and usually will prosecute if the infant dies. That's one data point on the birth end of the spectrum.

On the other end is the "morning after pill". Society does tolerate this approach. That's a data point on the conception end of the spectrum.

Somewhere in between conception and live birth, human life obviously begins. At some point, it's a little more significant than drowning unwanted, unneeded kittens.

What is that point? Where does society draw the line, despite all the "bad things" that Downtown correctly points out?

I've heard all the "women's right" stuff...but at what point is it too late for her to choose? We KNOW that waiting and dumping the newborn kid in the trash is definitely too late.

Now NineZ came in here and related the current abortion debate to the LW debate. Obviously, he's decided for himself when "human life begins" and it's EARLY compared to the decisions of some other posters.

Hasn't he followed Downtown's advice to"Let everyone look into their hearts and make that determination for themselves."?

He just doesn't agree with some of you. And he's doing what his conscience dictates as a result. For that, for following HIS conscience and not YOURS...he gets hammered.  

Yet, his point is central. Once Society determines where "human life" officially begins, abortion AFTER that point is not abortion.

It's no different than what the Nazis did.

This to me, is the crux of the argument. But I've probably done a poor job of explaining that again.

Still, I love this kind of discussion!

[Downtown]

Quote NineZ:

Since 1973 in the United States alone we have killed over 40 million unborn babies.

I haven't killed any.

How can anyone think that we are any better than Hitler, Stalin or any other madman who places worldly power, money, and pleasure over the very basic principles of human existence, that being the sanctity of all human life.

I don't place power, money and pleasure over human life.  I don't think the vast majority of people do.  There is a large minority who are irresponsible and don't take actions such as using contraceptives and would choose the "abortion pill" or clinical abortion and think nothig of it.  My wife and myself are not that shallow.  I don't appreciate NineZ saying I am.

In this country alone we have a President that went so low as to even leave his country rather than serve it, when he was called to do so. And now he is the Commander and Chief of the Armed Forces.

Yep, and he was elected by a Majority.  Again, I didn't vote for Clinton, won't vote for Bush or Gore (I hear Ralph Nader is comming on Strong.)  

NineZ in saying WE is grouping all American Citizens and associating guilt.  I have a problem with that.

Let him direct his comments specifically toward people who would rather get an abortion than use a condom or birth control pill.

You got through to me.  I can't say when life starts.  I don't like abortion, but I know that reality and nirvana are far apart.  I cannot myself judge individuals on their actions when looking at the circumstance and history.  I have to leave those decisions to the individuals they affect and pray they make good decisions.



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"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
    lkbrown1@tir.com    
 http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!

[Toad]

First off, the one thing I am SURE of is that I don't have all the answers, or even very many.

As far as NineZ, I think he was using the "societal WE". I don't think he was pointing at any particular individual or group other than that.

His "we" is our present Society of the US that allows abortion beyond the point he considers life to have begun. (Whatever that point is for him.) This is where the "we aren't any better than the Nazis" part comes from, I believe. What is the common lament from the rest of the world? "How could they have stood by and let this happen?" Isn't that what NineZ is saying to his own society? He gets TO that view primarily by using a different starting point for "the beginning of human life", I think.

I will not fault him for that; obviously he's given it a lot of thought and it may well be a religious issue with him. It is his conscience that speaks to him.

Neither you nor I nor any of us have to agree with his position however. <although I suspect my thoughts lean towards a somewhat early "life" position vis-a-vis our society overall.>

As you pointed out, we make that determination for ourselves. Together, however, we make up the societal rules through our government. (and isn't THAT a bit overly optimistic!)

Now, ALL the previous discussion aside, our society HAS, to an extent, determined what it will allow as "legal." It's been to and from our courts countless times and all we can really say is that the issue is temporarily resolved.

Early in the century, our Society essentially prohibited abortion; continual political action by those in favor of more liberal policies has "swung the pendulum" to where it so uncertainly rests now.

There are those who would swing the pendulum back the other way, and they can be expected to work just as hard and long as their opponents did.

This is our way, isn't it? I would expect nothing less in a free and open society.
One side is free to push, the other side is free to resist that push.

I also think that medical science is going to shed a lot more light on when life begins. The DNA coding was an amazing feat and it's sure to lead to even more knowledge.
Perhaps the cold analysis of science can aid the sorely troubled angst of conscience.

I'm sympathetic to many of your statements DT. But I can also see the point to which NineZ alludes.

Pretty tricky ground we're all on; most of the truly important stuff we deal with in life is much deeper than it first appears.

Now, go fly in front of me so I can WHACK YA!    


[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 08-03-2000).]

[Tac]

Interesting thread...

Churchill is one of my favourite reads, I consider him to be the Shakespeare (I can't even spell that.. go figure!) of History.  

As far as abortion goes, I can just make a reference to a latin american songwriter/singer, when he wrote the following critic in one of his songs when the Vatican proclaimed condoms and other such devices to be "against the faith":

"El Vaticano prohibio los anticonceptivos...prefieren niños con hambre que un preservativo"

*The vatican prohibited contraceptives..they prefer (to have) hungry children than a contraceptive*
-Ricardo Arjona-

And yes, imho,the one who has the last word on the subject is the mother.