Author Topic: The Ugly American  (Read 3194 times)

Offline Toad

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The Ugly American
« Reply #30 on: August 02, 2000, 02:52:00 PM »
 
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Originally posted by RAM:
[BAh, hang...BTW...dont brag that much about US intervention in WWII...with NO intervention in WWI there would've been NO WWII...

so maybe you only came to put straight something you didnt fix before.
[/b]

I am admittedly only an ignorant, opportunist descendant of the cast-off dregs of European society, so I need a little help with this one.

So, if we had stayed out of WWI we would not have had to enter WW2 to put straight something we did not fix by actually entering WWI?

If we had stayed out, what would have happened/resulted that would have prevented WW2? What did US involvement in WWI change in this respect?

BTW, I am a strongly isolationist opportunist. I always have been; even when I was in the USAF. Weird, huh?

I'd be real happy just to have all American troops home from EVERYWHERE by this Christmas, never to leave US soil again. Never.

Now DA98, it seems just about everybody keeps telling us we aren't the world's policeman. (I happen to agree with that sentiment.)But am I to understand that you wanted us to come help you toss Franco?

Yet if we support other folks in Civil Wars against murderous Dictatorships, we're sticking our noses in where we don't belong?

No wonder we poor cast-offs are so confused.

Yes, we've supported some pretty bad dictators in our time, too. Opposed some, supported others. I won't argue that.

I just want a little guidance on how you enlightened Europeans want us to pick who to befriend and who to fight.

As I said, I'm for keeping US troops in the US.    

[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 08-02-2000).]
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Hornet

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« Reply #31 on: August 02, 2000, 02:57:00 PM »
To return to the original debate raised in General Discussion regarding the Luftwaffe...

The argument on these boards in defense of the Luftwaffe is that they were not fighting for Hitler so much as defending their families from the B17's raining destruction on their homeland. I see this as a reasonable argument. But I see it as one that is still suspect.

Lets examine how the Luftwaffe would be judged by US historians if the Nazi's had won the war. Suppose the US decided that Europe could kiss off. Suppose Britain fell to Sea Lion as planned. No B17's, no 24 hour bombing.

If the Luftwaffe had never been forced defensive, they could have never used the honorable reason of defending loved ones to justify their service for the Nazi regime. The Luftwaffe would have then only be seen as an integral part in the conquering of Europe for a regime that exterminated a people.

I am not attempting to paint German fighter pilots as monsters. But I do believe that just by the fact that they lost the conflict, it is somewhat easier for them to marginalize the weight of their undeniably skillful efforts in the advancement of the Nazi war machine. If they had won, I think that they would have been faced with a much more troublesome reckoning.

In general I see one side on these boards approach Luftwaffe motivation from a fairly later viewpoint when German cities were getting bombed to hell. The other side approaches this debate from an earlier viewpoint, where the Luftwaffe was pure aggressor.  

I'd posit a comparision between a successful Luftwaffe and the successful Oppenheimer of the Manhatten Project. I suspect that it would have been easier for Oppenheimer to say he was doing his duty for the US and move on with his life, if his work had ultimately failed. Instead his personal agony did not really begin until after the fruits of his labor had been realized.

In a sense then, the Luftwaffe was spared the worst possibility of a hideous war; the possibility of having been successful.

Because they failed, the case of the Luftwaffe pilot becomes an intriguing story of the human condition. Had they been victorious, reading the same stories would be unplatable because of the larger nightmarish consequences for humanity that would lurk behind every victory, every heroic escape.

I respect many of the Luftwaffe aces. I believe that many did not share the Nazi ideology. I do believe that all were socially irresponsible, but they were also young men driving hot-rods and I understand that. For these reasons I do believe they were lucky to escape Oppenheimer's nightmare, the nightmare of having won.  

"Now I've become Death, the destroyer of worlds."

-Hornet
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Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #32 on: August 02, 2000, 03:06:00 PM »
RUH ROH DOWNTOWN !!, NOW YOUR TALKING LADDIE!!

<Ripsnort does a crazy dance in the middle of his office!!>

No offense, Ram, DT just got my blood flowing like a good all-American!

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #33 on: August 02, 2000, 03:08:00 PM »
 You can argye until you are blue in the face what country is better by listing some subjectively valued features, or, worse yet, alleged misdeeds and merits of long-dead people.

 One thing that can really give us some comparison is the movement of the people.

 Granted, there are lots of people who are trying to get to both european countries and to USA from less prosperous/democratic countries. In both places there are severe immigration restrictions against that kind of people, so the comparisons are meaningless. (You would think that with americans so proud of their forefathers coming here and starting a new life, any one wishing to come here would be granted citizenship right away and admired as a modern-day hero. Not so by far.)

 There are much less restrictions for highly educated people (Ph.D and such )and key business or welthy people.

 Many more of such people elect to come to US from Europe rather then other way around despite lots of things that are worse in USA then in other countries. That is the only reasonabe proof of USA superiority in my eyes.

 Of course the USA owes its superiority to those same people who come here and do things they were not able to do in their land of birth and that born americans won't/can't do due to their decadence and bad education.

 Each one of those who stayed and of those who returned would tell you what considerations were most important to them.

miko--

Offline RAM

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« Reply #34 on: August 02, 2000, 03:17:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime:
LOL RAM.. three words.

GENERALISSIMO FRANCISCO FRANCO

A Nazi. I seem to recall Americans of note had some small involvement in funding his opposition in your civil war.

Yes a small involvement. And a monstrous bigger one in the 50's to SUPPORT HIM because he was an ANTICOMMUNIST DICTATOR. Butthat involvement in the 50's was a SUPPORTING ONE. YOU, americans, SUPPORTED A FASCIST REGIME because it was anticommunist.

Tell me again ,do I need to thank you sooo much about that? about 40 years of dictatorship that only subsisted because US supported the existance of Franco's regime?

Oh, thank you, then Mr Eisenhower. Maybe if you never came to Spain, then Franco would have lasted for 5 more years instead of 25.

 
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RAM; you know dick about America; or our politics.
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just the same you know about europe's history, seems.

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All you have to go on is Baywatch and Scary Movie, or the propoganda pushed at you during your socialist/fascist education.
Never saw Baywatch more than twice. Never believed what I saw in that series. Spanish girls are way better than american, that fer sure.   (Image removed from quote.)


 
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FYI England does not vote in her monarch; and the house of lords don't do nothin.    

I can recall at least 2 monarchs who thought as you do.

They both ended with no head.

 
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If you are just lookin fer a shot; kewl; I can understand that; but pleeeeese.. yer country; out of all in europe has possibly the worst record on civil rights for the individual. Yet you think you can throw stones at us? Old sins?? How's the inqusition; for starters?? Indians? You; a SPANIARD dares quote to me abuses of Native American INDIANS? The Spanish were here killing the natives first; pal. You guys were the real pro's... Who destroyed the Aztec and Mayan cultures?

UH, yeah. But I dont brag about my country's past. But about its present and future.

You do brag about US past since 1776.

 
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Tell me.. you vote?
I do-Forced to,as I live in the Basque country. And damned proud I do vote (spanish readers will understand why do I say "forced to", but I wont dig on it)

.    (Image removed from quote.)


 
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You ever serve in your countrys armed forces? Ever get shot at? Ever get HIT?
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Tried to get into Air Forces. Eye sight on right eye lacking, rejected.
The other questions are rethorical. Of course, answer to both is "no"

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How many of your relatives did not come home from a foreign war? Friends?? Neighbors?? What price has your family paid for EUROPES CURRENT FREEDOM?

Not in a foreign war but on a "domestic" thing. My granddad dissapeared (in year 2000 we still dont know what happened to him) in 1950 because he said Franco's regime was a shame for freedom. He fought for the Republican side in Civil war and had some problems to find work.

One night in 1950 the police broke into my grandpa's house, where he was sleeping with his wife, and his 3 little kids, and they got him.

Still never heard anything else about him.

He didnt die in a war. For sure he did die for freedom. And I am damned proud of him and being his grandson.

 
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My arrogance is EARNED. I paid for it. It was pricey; and once earned at such great cost; I tend to guard it closely.

Yep; I'm a patriot. What are you?

Hang


I am a 22 year old guy who has a lot to learn, who still needs to live a lot and who wants to keep his ideals up to your age.

And I hope I do.




[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 08-02-2000).]

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #35 on: August 02, 2000, 03:32:00 PM »
LOL RAM.. good on you.  

I was cringing; typing that post; knowing of yer grandfather. He did die in a war for freedom.. your family knows of sacrafice. And Pain.

I salute you.. and wish you no ill will.

Hang

The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #36 on: August 02, 2000, 03:47:00 PM »
Very few of us, at age 50, would recognize ourselves at age 20 and vice versa.

The Real World has a way of rounding your sharp edges.

I wish you luck.

[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 08-02-2000).]
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Craven

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« Reply #37 on: August 03, 2000, 04:49:00 AM »
Nath... You are not up on your history bud, Better study up alittle more.  US sent more materials to USSR than we did to England, not just p39s.  The only thing that saved Stalins bellybutton was US help and the Russian Winter period.

Offline Naso

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« Reply #38 on: August 03, 2000, 05:41:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Toad:
(CUT)
I'd be real happy just to have all American troops home from EVERYWHERE by this Christmas, never to leave US soil again. Never.

(CUT)

As I said, I'm for keeping US troops in the US.    

WOW,

TOAD FOR PRESIDENT !!!!!

I love you man  

Nath-BDP

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« Reply #39 on: August 03, 2000, 06:44:00 AM »
Enlighten me craven... did the US supply enough equipment for Russia's 10 million + troops? I doubt it...

Actually what saved Russia was its superiority in numbers of poeple and equipment that it manufactured itself such as the T34 which wasn't American. Name one American rifle that was used by the Russians en masse.

Ships weren't a major factor in the East, nor were aircraft for that matter... Germany had superiority in the air.

[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 08-03-2000).]

Offline RAM

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« Reply #40 on: August 03, 2000, 07:41:00 AM »
   
Quote
Originally posted by Nath-BDP:
Enlighten me craven... did the US supply enough equipment for Russia's 10 million + troops? I doubt it...

Literally hundreds of thousands of Trucks, Halftracks, Radio sets (something very needed in USSR), Planes (Spitfires, Hurricanes, P39s, P63s, etc), Tanks (Valentines, Stuarts, even M4s), GP things (clothes, hand weapons, ammunition, field artillery, etc)...

I call that a decisive support.


   
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Actually what saved Russia was its superiority in numbers of poeple and equipment that it manufactured itself such as the T34 which wasn't American.

russian industry only could start to produce bigger numbers of equipment than germans in 1943, when their ecenomy turned into full swing.

BTW What saved USSR was nothing but Hitler stupidity. Had German army's generals let alone to do their work,Moscow would have been overrun in october 1941.

 
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Name one American rifle that was used by the Russians en masse.

M1 Garand.


   
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Ships weren't a major factor in the East, nor were aircraft for that matter... Germany had superiority in the air.


I think I am misunderstnading this...you are telling me that Germny had technical or numeric superiority on the East front?

Because none of both were true from 1943 onwards (because 190D9s and Me262 were rarely used in the east front)

and the numbes of planes involved in the east front in 1944/45 were odds of 30/1 in Soviet favor.


[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 08-03-2000).]

Offline Toad

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« Reply #41 on: August 03, 2000, 10:29:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Nath-BDP:
Actually what saved Russia was its superiority in numbers of poeple and equipment that it manufactured itself such as the T34 which wasn't American. (edited 08-03-2000).]

Hey, Nath, over in that Tanker Talk thread in vehicles somebody said:

"All in all one starts wondering why did the American designers do so bad in WWII designs...so early as 1928 they had a prototype of a medium tank (with a revolutionary new suspension), designed by Walther Christie that made up to 70! mph on road and and 30! on cross country...Patton and Chaffee themselves supported the design by Christie...but he fell out of favour when he refused to make certain changes to bring it up to the official specification made by the US army.

Later that prototype and a licence was purchased by the Soviet Union...it was used on BT light tanks,and it finally ended being
the suspension used in the T-34, the one that gave that tank its legendary cross-road performance."

But then, the Russkies claim they invented baseball, too, as I recall.  


NASO:

Thanks for the vote but I can never be a politician anywhere...I have some integrity left!

...and don't forget, I'd like those troops home NEVER to leave home again. That means you guys gotta sweep up after yourselves from now on, no exceptions.  
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Nath-BDP

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« Reply #42 on: August 03, 2000, 11:02:00 AM »
 
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I think I am misunderstnading this...you are telling me that Germny had technical or numeric superiority on the East front?

Because none of both were true from 1943 onwards (because 190D9s and Me262 were rarely used in the east front)

Germany had air superiority on the eastern front.

   

"Comment:
The most commonly quoted source on this matter is Ernst Obermaier's Die Ritterkreuztriiger
der Luftwaffe, Band 1 Jagdflieger 1939-1945. According to Obermaier, the German
fighter pilots claimed a total of 70,000 aerial victories during World War 11- 25,000 against the "West" and 45,000 on the Eastern Front. At the same time, the German Flak (AAA
batteries) reported the shooting down of more than 20,000 enemy aircraft.
According to the same source, 16,400 German day fighter aircraft were lost (total
loss, i.e. aircraft with more than 60% damage) as the result of hostile action during the war
years. 8,500 German day fighter pilots were killed, 2, 700 went missing or were taken
prisoners and 9, lOO were injured.

Different total loss figures for the RAF and USAAF are published frequently. Less
known are the loss statistics for the Soviet Air Force. The so far most reliable figures are
given in the book Red Stars, recently published in Finland. According to this, the combat
losses of the Soviet Air Force in the Second World War amounted to 46, lOO aircraft. Over
18,400 Soviet officer pilots were killed in action and another 20,600 went missing in
action or were taken prisoners.
Previously, the German author HeinzAF Schmidt (in Sowjetische Flugzeuge) put the
total number of individual combat missions undertaken by the Soviet Air Force between
June 22, 1941 and YE Day 1945 at 3,223,000, thus giving the total loss rate 1.4% for the
whole war, compared with the loss figures given in Red Star,\,. (As a comparison, the total
loss rate for the RAP Bomber Command between July 1940 and YE Day 1945, was 2.9% )
Not included in the table above are the results of the German night fighters, who
claimed to have downed a total of 5,729 Western Allied aircraft, the true figure probably
being around 5,000.
This leads to the conclusion that on average, eight Western Allied aircraft were shot
down for every ten aerial victories claimed by German day fighter pilots, while the ratio
on the Eastern Front was probably a bit smaller, due to the fact that the major part of the air
combats in this war theater took part over Soviet held territory."

After Bodenplatte most of Germanys airpower in the west, what remained of it, was transferred to the east to try and halt the Soviet advance before they passed the river Oder. Contained most definatly with D9s and later on 262s were used against Soviet ground operations.


 
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BTW What saved USSR was nothing but Hitler stupidity. Had German army's generals let alone to do their work,Moscow would have been overrun in october 1941.

Hitler's genrals did their job as fast as they could, it wasn't Hitlers fault they were 'behind schedule' and couldn't take Moscow, Germany had too little numbers in troops and too long a ways to bring supplies in to reinforce their army.
Also the Russian winter slowed the Germans down but the spring thaw was worse, even checked the Soviets.  

p.s. Thats nice toad, and where do you think the US and Soviets got their jet and rocket ideas and space program from? ;p


------------------
Geschwaderkommodore JG 54
"Grünherz"

 

[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 08-03-2000).]

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #43 on: August 03, 2000, 11:04:00 AM »
Well, Americans are still ugly opportunists.

<gets the thread back on track>
 



------------------
StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"

Offline maddog

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« Reply #44 on: August 03, 2000, 11:28:00 AM »
I think you people are arguing the wrong things, USA is great.... saved a lot of freedom for the globe... but the USA started with people no one else wanted and in a lot of cases still is... America should be the pride of the world because it is populated by people from all over the world... flawed? you bet, but we try to do the right things.. and some one in your gene pool is over here enjoying themselves and helping us make it what it is....
doc