Author Topic: The Ugly American  (Read 3191 times)

Offline Toad

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The Ugly American
« Reply #45 on: August 03, 2000, 11:59:00 AM »
Nate...Whittle? Goddard?    

Nah, you're right...the Germans did it ALL. Every last little bit...no other nation deserves any credit for any thing. From sliced bread to aftershave, the rest of us are humbled..

Happy now?    


Hey Santa, I've lost Volume XIV of "Danish War Heroes of WW2". Any copies left over there?


It made such an nice set with my 22 Volume Leather Bound set of "Altruism: Danish Contributions to World Society".

Sorry...that was really an "oppportunist" shot, wasn't it?

FLAAAAAAAAMMMMMMMEEEEEFEST!  

[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 08-03-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 08-03-2000).]
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #46 on: August 03, 2000, 12:37:00 PM »
LOL.. I'm tellin yah...

You DON'T wanna piss Toad off.  

The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline RAM

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« Reply #47 on: August 03, 2000, 04:38:00 PM »
Nath the pic you post shows that Geman a/c shot down more russian planes than the number they lost themselves.

Oh well I dont have the numbers of Aircraft lost on the Poland invasion...its incredible the air superiority that Poland enjoyed in 1939.  

 
Quote
Originally posted by Nath-BDP:
 Hitler's genrals did their job as fast as they could, it wasn't Hitlers fault they were 'behind schedule' and couldn't take Moscow, Germany had too little numbers in troops and too long a ways to bring supplies in to reinforce their army.
Also the Russian winter slowed the Germans down but the spring thaw was worse, even checked the Soviets.  

Go run for your books and read the chapter called "Hitler's greatests blunders: Kiev".

Hoth and Guderian were running at full speed to Moscow when Hitler Forced them to turn towards south to entrap Kiev's poket. There Hitler won a big big victory but maybe he lost the war. When the panzers started rolling again towards moscow it was late october. The rest of the story is known.

So maybe you want to revise your posts.  


Naso...LOL!   you cant quote me, dont worry   no need to hide my name  

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #48 on: August 03, 2000, 05:48:00 PM »
RAM.. the world of 'what if' on the eastern front can get lost in a quagmire of hindsight.

A couple of things do stand out.. and I'm of the poor opinion that the Russians woulda taken back every square inch of their land with or without help from Hitler or the USA.

Why?? Stalin. An egotistical madman with a deep and abiding hatred for the Germans and Hitler in particular. He had at his disposal the largest deepest pockets of all the 'allied' powers when it came to raw materials and manpower. He lost two years repositioning his industry west of the Urals; and during that time the US support effort merely assisted him in holding fast at Stalingrad.

The Russians at Stalingrad held on there with incredible losses.. an insane way to fight a war.. Stalingrad was a Russian diddly YOU to Hitler writ LARGE in blood. More than a Million Russians died there.. hundreds of thousands of civilians perished. "Not one step back!" Stalin was making it clear that no more of his cities would fall to the Hun.. if they wanted 'em the Germans were gonna have to be willing to spend men at a prodigious rate.. and tho Hitler tried; pulling divisons from as far away as western France; it did him no good.

The weather and Hitler both contributed to the German failure to capture Moscow; but the Russian tenacity at Stalingrad put the handwriting on the wall. With bitter fierce  resistance and a willingness to spend troops and scorch the earth they lost the Russians  insured an eventual victory and the ultimate German defeat.

Even had Hitler gained Stalingrad; and hence Moscow; it would have only made the Russian retibition more terrible when the came back across the Urals... and Stalin was already postioned and equipped for his counterattack in the winter/spring of 43.

Chuikov's counterattack handily destroyed Manheims' relief army while still holding Polus at Stalingrad. The entire German 6th army was annilated. Over 700,00 men; their equipment... gone.

The US assistance gained Stalin a few months.. even that is debatable; but certainly no more. And all the american boots and trucks mattererd not a whit when balanced against the Russian mindset. Had Germany protected herself against the Russian and American invaders with the same tenacity the Russins showed at Stalingrad; then the war would have gone a year longer... and Berlin mighta been the first city to see the Bomb.

IMHO.  

Hang
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #49 on: August 03, 2000, 08:31:00 PM »
Toad:

<places tongue in cheek>

Ehm, no, you pissing in the wind to win a numbers games opportunist dweeb American of the century.

I guess some Danes killed American GI's, and did it with a smile on their face. Others killed German soldiers with just about the same show of affection.

Ok, let me state this quite clearly, so that even you, a slow dumb Americans can get it into your stupid little ignorant head: Denmark hasn't been a powerful country for hundreds of years. It has a pitiful army, a very small sized population and little international influence. During WWII, Denmark capitulated after only a few days, after Germany massed their forces on the south border. Resistance fighters continued however; I have family members who were in it.

So, we do not have tons and tons of war heroes: Nor do we have tons of war monster baby rapers either. And, quite frankly, I don't give a toejam. I do not take credit for what other men and women have done; not the negative sides, and not the positive sides. You seem to do, but only on the latter.

And also, about contributions to the world, you seem to forget there was a time before the US even existed, when basically 90% of all thoughts and ideas, if not inventions, came to be. The US was smart enough to accept the European intelligentsia fleeing from war ton Europe, and they gave you a technological edge. A German gave your space program legs to stand on, another fellow called Einstein helped out on some minor physics issues, and so forth.

But, to give you one influencial Dane that had some impact on WWII and science in general; Niels Bohr. To give you a philosopher; Sĝren Kierkegaard. These are just people who happened to be born in the same general geographical area as I was. Only idiots, or stupid dumb American opportunistic dweebs who are one bit short of a byte would take credit for the works someone else has done, for the only reason of being born in close proximity within certain legal boundaries.

Toad, tell me you're not this much of an idiot.

Or regurgitate the bull manure you spewed and prove it again.

<finger>
<replaces tongue to where it ought to be>

Man, I love a good flame war  

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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"

[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 08-03-2000).]

Offline Toad

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« Reply #50 on: August 03, 2000, 08:48:00 PM »
LOL!

That was TOO EASY!

Almost ripped the rod right outta my hands!I'm going to mount this one over the fireplace!!!

Way-Cool Mr. Santa getting tight! Over a couple of one-liners!

Please tell me you're not so able to dish it out but so unable to take any at all?

 
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #51 on: August 03, 2000, 10:05:00 PM »
Toad deftly reels; snaps the rod down, yanks back again, drops the tip; cranks the reel...

"GOT 'EM!!  ..GET THE GAFF HANG!"

Hang grabs the gaff; leans over the side, and swings... *THUNK* He yanks upward and inward; and though the air comes a glistening...

"Well.. wouldya look at that... a fargin canned HAM!"

Hang and Toad look at the thrashing Tin of Pork rolling about on the deck. Hang starts laffin..

"Dammo; the porker put up a heluva fight.. thought he'd be bigger after all that fuss. Think he's gonna measure the limit??"

Toad sighs; shakes his head.

"Nah. Too scrawny. Besides, I had to register the can opener last year. Cops stopped by last week and confiscated it. Toss the bugger back. Mebbe he'll be bigger next month."

 

The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Tac

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« Reply #52 on: August 03, 2000, 10:07:00 PM »
Man what a load of bull and over-inflated egos I see here.  

My 2 cents on this...

1) America inventor of Democracy : Go to your local library and read some more. That the US has a Democracy that works better than previous ones, perhaps. Wait another 500 years and see what your great-great grandkids say about the US democracy at that point.

2)Russia wouldve defeated Germany (or viceversa): I dont believe the Germans couldve conquered Russia completely, nor do I think the Russians couldve taken on Germany alone. Russia needed (in fact, demanded desperately) that the allies open a second front. Think about it.. if Russia had been on its own it wouldve re-equipped itself too slowly and too late to push back the German army during the winter.

3) U.S. being world cop: Heck, they do make the best donuts, so why not? I'd rather let the US keep the nukes and policing policies than to let China or France or South Africa do it. Fact is, so far so good (well, at least the world is not a radioactive ball in space). I do disagree with many of the US foreign policy, mainly the fact that there is no intervention or NATO-UN actions without US giving a green light (pun: $$$)... and US will not do that unless there is a profitable/image gain for it.

Let me remind you of the FIRST lesson my International Relations teacher, an 80 year old guy that sat in the U.N. meetings for over 20 years: "All nations act on their own self-interest".

Apply that to all the arguments you have here.

World War 2: US entered ONLY after it was attacked. But before that, the lend-lease programs and other stuff it did before joining the Allies was done because it benefited them. Lend-Lease? See how many bases around the world did the U.K. traded for US Lend-Lease?.. traded them for about 50 years. Those bases were INVALUABLE to the US during the Cold War. Not to mention that, in the eyes of the leaders of those times, the most militaristic nations in history (Japan, Germany, Italy) were literally storming the world. It most certainly freaked them out.

Now, as far as this part: "Thanks America for stabilizing southern America. God bless CIA intervention there, in defence of freedom and democracy."

and the list of names posted above that were about South America...  I can only say: "All nations act on their own self-interest"

The US has literally SCREWED, and I mean ROYALLY screwed the economic development of most south american countries during and after the Cold War. I am from Colombia, and I personally dont appreciate the US taking away Panama (which was part of Colombia) away and making it an independent country just so the US didnt have to deal with an established nation to build the Canal, but with a newly placed, puppet government that would allow them to build the canal at the minimum expense and GREAT benefits from it. And I wont even go on talking about the current problems in my country which are a direct result of "acts of self-interest" the US did during the Cold War. Heck, times change, what is done is done! All we can hope for now is that those mistakes arent repeated.

I understand why most US folks here are passionate about their nation's "great achievements". And i dont hold anything against that, but to blatantly scream and glorify yourself and your own kind on things your ancestors did ("All nations act on their own self-interest") is plain sick and quite pathetic imho.

You really think the UN, the US or anyone else for that matter wouldve aided Kuwait if it was a watermelon-producing country (aka, no OIL)? My, I'm sure Tibet wouldve LOVED to have such "moral incentive" to have the international commmunity free it after it was invaded. Shows you why all presidents have sternly denied the Lama any official audience (I think it was Clinton who spoke with him in private, though no political things were discussed as far as I recall). There is no profit in helping Tibet.

So you US folks bathing in false glory better learn that no country has ever done anything for moral purposes. Not the Vatican, not the US, not Monaco has ever, and will never do anything because "its the right thing to do".  

"All the world is a stage" , and each nation is an actor. Pass me the program pamphlet, I want to see if the butler did it!  

Nath-BDP

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« Reply #53 on: August 03, 2000, 10:55:00 PM »

 
Quote
Go run for your books and read the chapter called "Hitler's greatests blunders: Kiev".

Hoth and Guderian were running at full speed to Moscow when Hitler Forced them to turn towards south to entrap Kiev's poket. There Hitler won a big big victory but maybe he lost the war. When the panzers started rolling again towards moscow it was late october. The rest of the story is known.

Army group north ---> Leningrad, Baltic states

Army group center 55 divisions ---> Moscow

Army group south ---> Keiv, Stalingrad

Army group center was on the outskirts of Moscow in October, it never assisted in the capture of Keiv. In September and October rain-mud and fatigue slowed the Germans.

Also, after destroying Smolensk on 5 August, Hoth's panzers were ordered north to Leningrad and Guderian to Kiev, leaving Moscow to the infantry, having panzers they still wouldn't have gotten to Moscow in time.

Offline Naso

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« Reply #54 on: August 04, 2000, 05:03:00 AM »
Well said, TAC.

To the "ugly americans":

One think i understand talking with my RL american friends (yes i have american friends, i'm not a racist like the "ugly US man"), is that the medium US citizen have a small knowledge of the rest of the world, even if related with US interests, and this knowledge is in some way distorted in favour of the "we are the best, the rest is toejam" way of thinking.
I know, this is necessary when you need to control a nation (Mussolini and Hitler do the same at their times), and prepare it to wage war for your interests.
USA is a nation always in war, even now, and the government need to have citizen firmly believing they are right and that god is on their side, and the education system and more generally the culture orientation have to work in that direction.

I want to share some information with people that wish to use the brain by themself, regarding my country, and believe me, these are facts.

Just after the WWI, the economy in Italy was really knocked down, and many of poor people, mostly from southern region, move out from Italy to search for survival, most of them move to the "America" (as WE called it, talking 'bout ancestors  ), contributing greatly for rising of your economy with low price workers and exporting in the process a social phenomenon called "mafia" (see later in the post).
Our country was on the knees, when a strange man whitout hairs, but with a strong personality took the power in 1923 and start a new government, based on a particulary form called "fascismo", he start saying we can be strong enough to walk on our feet and try to isolate our economy to avoid foreign influence, and strange to say, this worked!!.
The price was freedom.
I mean, in that time you can do everithink you want but to opposite in real terms to the government and the dominant culture.
At the same time, the fascism push the attention to expantion of the country, concentrating to the military issues and a colonial foreign policy.
As a medium citizen of that time knew, we colonize Libya and Etiopia to "share our civilization", and we conquer Albania because the "legitimate government" ask for our help.
A little study of the propaganda techniques will help you to understand the thinks you see and listen and read on mass media.
This recall me in some way the actual situation of USA, think:
you have the fascists and defend theyr rights to think, but you still attack and forbid the communism, right or wrong it will be.
you go and wage war in well selected nations because they "need" your help.

Naturally the best friend of this fascist nation was the nation where a political leader mutuate some ideas from fascism, creating a new type, called "Nationalsocialism", in fact they become soon allied, founding the "Axis Rome-Berlin" (is from this the name now common Axis).
The "Society of nations" started a blockade of the Axis economy, trying to avoid the expantion policy both nations acted.
So what we have?
Two large economies, one expanding the other stagnating coming to a crunch.
Soon or later war will explode.
And did.
Meanwhile in Italy the people was convinced that the powers of West countryes where pushing for destroy our freedom and was almost ready to follow Mussolini where he want to go, he bring some richness and wellfare, confrontating to the past, so he worked well.
When Hitler started the game, Mussolini after a while, with doubt (cause he know we was'nt ready to war), follow.
The guys in uniform found themselves fighting a war they believe was a right war, but with old tools, and poor commanders.
They act well, in Africa and in Russia, even with they pityful armament.
And i repeat, they believe was right, because theyr culture said this was right (this for the "Luftwaffe question").
The morality it's always relative of the culture.
We fight, we was losing, people was starving, and start thinking somethink was wrong, maybe waging war is'nt so good.
When Allied forces (Allied forces, not only US forces, baby) entered Sicily, we feel war was lost, and Germans take in forces (for theyr interest, of course) the defence of the country.
One of the best allies of the Allied Forces was mafia (here they appear again), helping with intelligence and civilian control, and taking in this way big control over the later political local government.
When 8 september 1943, the king come to terms and sign the armistice with the allied, Germans take control of the entire country, and start to act as they used to do in occupied countrys.
This push the northern citizen to organize themselfs to resist the Germans, and to found the "Resistenza", civilian forces that fight the Germans.
Meanwhile the Germans put Mussolini on chief of a new founded government, called "Repubblica di Salò", from the small town where it formed, followed from people still believing in Mussolini.
This was the darkest hour we live, fighting brother vs brother in a civil war we are still remembering with pain.
And we had two armies too, fighting on both sides.
Meanwhile in the resistenza two souls show up:
one near to liberalism, the other near to the comunism (before Mussolini we had a strong communist party).
When war finished our country was destroyed, the economy was non-existent.
In the south the control was granted by mafia, but in the north the thinks where different, the communist party was strong, helped from Russia.
Italy was on the edge of the West block, extending in mediterranean, in few words: strategic.
This meant, in change to be "defended" from the child-eaters communists, we had to reserve spaces for US (i said US, not Nato) bases, like the one near my house.
We decided to have a new government, a republic.
Near to the elections of the new founded government, the USA start giving hide help to the liberalist partyes, and with help of the mafia-controlled votes of the south part, a US friendly government was founded.
And here start a new colonialism, the economical-cultural one.
We become the best allies of the States, our loved friend.
This situation lasted for 40 years, with government changing in appareance, but doing the same, just like a South American "Democracy".
We become rich, but we develope an economical debt, really scaring, and an economical dipendence from States, like a knife in our neck.
In the sixties, like in the rest of the western countryes, a new thinking started, youngs and factory workers start to ask for theyr rights, and when the government react violently, start to fight.
In the early '70s we was near to a revolution, but somethink happen...
Bombs.
In the middle of the people, with lot of deaths.
Since then we knew the more "Hot" left guys, the "brigate rosse" terrorist organization (self called revolutionary, but they lost, you know?  ), used to shot precisely to political targets, killing precise key persons, why they now start killing innocent people?.
As we know now, was'nt the brigate rosse, was the right, fascist terrorist organization, with help of Italian secret services, and CIA (another nice gift from USA, always active in Italy since the war ended) that put the bombs.
But at that time we ignore it, so the brigate rosse and generally the left pushing was disbanded, and the government gain other 15 years of "stability".
Then the wall falls...
Mafia is still strong...
CIA is still here...
Bases are still active...

Do you still think your nation do this to save us?
Or maybe was to save herself ass?

Maybe we cut be grateful to have been liberated by the Germans and the fascists, but do you think we have to payback for more generations?
It's not enough?
Cant we start to be equals, in a community of equals, or we have to be controlled and occupied forever?
And you think we have to like it?

There are two other thinks i want recall:
one has happened in 1980 when a civilian aircraft was downed by a missile fired suspectly by an US fighter (81 deads).
The USA denyed responsability, and with help of Italian airforce they delete proves of their operations and the fight occurred with a Lybian fighter in the same moment in the same zone, in fact the US forces where trying to down the Geddhafi's airplane, similar to the DC-9 of Itavia.
The other is more recent in Cermis, when an amazinhunk pilot of marines play low level flight, 20 people died in the process, but who care, they where european.
An "ugly american" is more important than 20 europeans, in fact he believed to be an hero, "for bringing back the plane to base he deserve a medal".

Being an "ugly american", nationalist, arrogant and ignorant, gain hate to you and your nation, and soon or later you will be presented the bill.
Try to be gentle, respectful, open minded to different cultures and history, and you will gain respect and an honorable name.

The world is bigger than you think, open your eyes and look around, the entire world is OUR nation, mine and yours, and is beatiful in his differences, there is no place better than another.

Cya

funked

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« Reply #55 on: August 04, 2000, 05:30:00 AM »
Nath you have a strange definition of air superiority.  Kill stats don't mean squat in a real war.  The idea is to blow up the enemy's stuff on the ground while protecting your own stuff.

In the last two years of the war, the Luftwaffe could provide only incomplete fighter cover for their ground forces, and could only offer close air support on a tiny scale.  

Meanwhile Red sturmoviks and dive bombers were everywhere.  Sure they took heavy losses, but they hurt the Wehrmacht many times worse than the Luftwaffe hurt the Red Army.  That's air superiority.  

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 08-04-2000).]

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #56 on: August 04, 2000, 07:41:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by StSanta:
Well, Americans are still ugly opportunists.

<gets the thread back on track>
 



LOL, Santa calls the world ugly opportunists!(Remember, American Indians are the real 'Americans')
 


Offline StSanta

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« Reply #57 on: August 04, 2000, 08:21:00 AM »
Hangtime; you've been baited, taken up, cleansed and fed to the dogs ages ago   . You even took the bait and started a whole new thread  

Missed ya in MA the last few days? You taking a break?

Toad, great fun <S!>

That B17 vs ponies fight yesterday was awesome. I sorta lost SA when jumping turrets (not a buff driver) and then ya got me  

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[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 08-04-2000).]

Offline RAM

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« Reply #58 on: August 04, 2000, 08:41:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Nath-BDP:

 Army group north ---> Leningrad, Baltic states

Army group center 55 divisions ---> Moscow

Army group south ---> Keiv, Stalingrad

Army group center was on the outskirts of Moscow in October, it never assisted in the capture of Keiv. In September and October rain-mud and fatigue slowed the Germans.

Also, after destroying Smolensk on 5 August, Hoth's panzers were ordered north to Leningrad and Guderian to Kiev, leaving Moscow to the infantry, having panzers they still wouldn't have gotten to Moscow in time.


Then tell me why the advance on moscow was stalled for a month when Guderian was detached to the South, and why it recovered its full momentum when they restarted the advance on Moscow, only to stall in last days of November.

(BTW an EXACTLY identical thing happened in Case Blue, when the 4th Panzer Army was moving towars a nearly undefended Stalingrad, Hitler stopped them and ordered them to assist the attack on the south...only to find that when they reached the combat zone, the battle was over. When they returned the advance on Stalingread there was a full Russian infantry army there...)



Nath-BDP

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« Reply #59 on: August 04, 2000, 09:09:00 AM »
Bad weather :P