Author Topic: And pigs will fly  (Read 4017 times)

Offline detch01

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And pigs will fly
« Reply #75 on: November 09, 2005, 11:25:16 AM »
From CNN's online article this morning:
"In addition, the board rewrote the definition of science, so that it is no longer limited to the search for natural explanations of phenomena."here

I'm sure there are other references to this 'advance' in teaching science on the net if you find CNN objectionable as a source.
Quote
originally posted by Seagoon

What ID proponents have managed to do is simply to make it possible that the old biology textbooks, filled with old and often discredited data will be supplemented by newer scientific material
It seems to me these oats have already been through the horse.
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Offline Leslie

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And pigs will fly
« Reply #76 on: November 09, 2005, 12:27:48 PM »
I just read the article Chairboy.  Seems the ID proponents were ousted on a separation of church and state argument.  There is nothing in our American constitution concerning separation of church and state, so I have to ask, where does this argument come from and more importantly, why does it have any traction in court ?   I view this outcome as a great injustice  not only to the ones who lost their jobs, but to the nation as a whole.

More to the point, why were they ousted on a separation of church and state argument and not on an argument that it is not science?  And who's to say it's not science?  ID sounds like deductive methodology.  In deductive reasoning there is a hunch or insight to begin with (in this case a "creator").  This has nothing to do with religion or advancing a religious agenda.  Their insight is that complex intricacies found in nature must have been designed by a creator, and they procede from that generalization to more specific details.  

In my opinion, what we are seeing here is a rivalry between the inductive and deductive methods.  Proponents of the two have always been at loggerheads, with inductive science mainly prefered by the empirical sciences as a matter of practicality, i.e. building and maintaining material things useful to man.

However in a science such as Biology, I would think the deductive method would be right at home, particularly when science concerns itself with seeking or explaining the origins of life.  At that point there must be some philosophy involved.  To discount the possibility of a creator is very unsound science if indeed philosophy has any place in science.  To my thinking, if origins of life are to be discussed in a science (Biology) class, both camps must be allowed mention, or it is not scientific.  To be even more scientific, Darwinian Evolution should be mentioned as outdated and for the most part no longer accepted as factual by modern scientists.







Les

Offline Samiam

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<sigh>
« Reply #77 on: November 09, 2005, 01:47:53 PM »
[Oops, I inteded this as a reply to the "Pigs will fly thread"]

Here are some details of this decision that are most insane:

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The measure’s language redefines “science” so that it’s not limited to the search for natural explanations of phenomena.


Cool, we get to redifine science to include supernatural  explanations of phenomina! I guess this means that witchcraft and ghost wispering get thrown into the science curriculum. I can see it now - a science class on using the Ouiji board. I'm sure this will sit well with the IDers. The supernatural rules!


Quote
The new standards say high school students must understand major evolutionary concepts. But they also declare that the basic Darwinian theory – that all life had a common origin and that natural chemical processes created the building blocks of life – have been challenged in recent years by fossil evidence and molecular biology.


They've been challenged in recent years?!?!

They've not credibly been challenged by any actual science (well, science according to the old definition).

This implies that all I have to do is present an unsubstantiated challenge to these idiots for it to be introduced as part of the science curriculum.

OK - I challenge the law of gravity. The Kansas state Educ. board now must require that we teach students that, in spite of all the evidence we have to the contrary, jumping off a 300ft building may not be fatal. Better yet, the board should just demonstrate it.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2005, 02:00:32 PM by Samiam »

Offline Yeager

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And pigs will fly
« Reply #78 on: November 09, 2005, 01:58:11 PM »
home school
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Offline Silat

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« Reply #79 on: November 09, 2005, 02:27:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Skilless
Quite like the current theory of the origin of life.



Skill that statement is absolutely untrue. Use google and you will find that you are wrong.
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Offline Skilless

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« Reply #80 on: November 09, 2005, 02:31:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Silat
Skill that statement is absolutely untrue. Use google and you will find that you are wrong.


The Big Bang Theory is filled with phrases like "it's believed that" and "it's thought that"  The difference between a theory and faith is that theorists believe and people of faith know.

So you're telling me you can google the mean of life now?  Modern technology is something else!

Offline Sandman

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And pigs will fly
« Reply #81 on: November 09, 2005, 02:38:32 PM »
the·o·ry    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (th-r, thîr)
n. pl. the·o·ries
A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.
The branch of a science or art consisting of its explanatory statements, accepted principles, and methods of analysis, as opposed to practice: a fine musician who had never studied theory.
A set of theorems that constitute a systematic view of a branch of mathematics.
Abstract reasoning; speculation: a decision based on experience rather than theory.
A belief or principle that guides action or assists comprehension or judgment: staked out the house on the theory that criminals usually return to the scene of the crime.
An assumption based on limited information or knowledge; a conjecture.  


faith    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (fth)
n.
Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.
Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
A set of principles or beliefs.



Maybe it's just me, but I think you have your definitions crossed.
sand

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #82 on: November 09, 2005, 02:57:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
You'll find that Nuke, when confronted for facts, becomes very obtuse... even when presented with iorn clad sources complete with footnotes on the subject, he dodges. (see my two footnoted einstein quotes on the subject up-thread)

Good luck. ;)

For my part, I aknowledge I can't comprehend the theory behind 'creation'.. on the other hand I can certainly accept that there's more than one possibility; and based on the thoughtful contemplation by the best brains ever fielded by humanity it's apparent that ID just religious inspired tripe being foisted off as 'scientific theory'.



What facts? Einstein explaned what he meant by a "personal " creator. He didn't believe in one. He said he was more in line with Spinoza's idea of a creator.

Einstein said that he believed a supreme intelligence was behind the creation of the universe. Just for you, I will dig up Einstiens quotes that back up what I am saying.

And the theory behind creation? Tell me what exactly you think created all the matter in the universe, then tell me how your version of "magic" is any more logical than believing that a supreme intelligence created all the matter. And saying a creator is not provable is being just as closed minded as saying that the only explanation is that it all exploded into existance at random and from nothing.

That's the funny thing to me and I alwayd get a kick out of people who bash others for even thinking about an intelligence behind the universe, but these same people will tell you that they believe  the universe popped into existance out of nothing, and not even bat an eye. It's very ironic.

Science is fine by me and it compliments my beliefs. Science can step backwards to the big bang, and that's all fine and dandy. What I am talking about is the point at which science gives up and pretty much ignores......... where did it all come from?

And intelligent design and a creator does not have to mean religeon. All it means is that it's a viable and logical point of origin......just as logical as any other.

I think it's more logical to think that an itelligence created everything. The laws of physics don't change at random and things do not just pop into existance out of nothing. Everything has perfect order and obeys perfect laws. It's all too perfect.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2005, 02:59:41 PM by NUKE »

Offline straffo

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« Reply #83 on: November 09, 2005, 02:59:42 PM »
check your PM Seagoon.

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #84 on: November 09, 2005, 03:09:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
First of all your 747 argument and all the others that point out the huge odds against something happening are just silly math. It happened. So the odds can't be that high. The odds of me talking to a guy named SEAGOON are 1 in 8,031,810,176. Wait a minute... there aren't that many people in the world.... Impossible!


If you are saying that you believe the odds are not that great that the entire universe exploded out of nothing, formed our planet, formed a life-friendly envirinment, then life popped into existance, then it seems like you would  have no problem believing anything is possible, even an intelligent creator.

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #85 on: November 09, 2005, 03:34:36 PM »
Nuke, again you dodge.. and then you muck rake.

Reconcile the two Einstein Qutoes I have above with 'Intelligent Design'.

Reconcile my "For my part, I aknowledge I can't comprehend the theory behind 'creation'.. on the other hand I can certainly accept that there's more than one possibility; and based on the thoughtful contemplation by the best brains ever fielded by humanity it's apparent that ID is just religious inspired tripe being foisted off as 'scientific theory'." with your:

 
Quote
That's the funny thing to me and I alwayd get a kick out of people who bash others for even thinking about an intelligence behind the universe, but these same people will tell you that they believe the universe popped into existance out of nothing, and not even bat an eye. It's very ironic.


You seem to think I've got to have an answer to the unknowable question in order to live my life... well, that may be YOUR circumstance, little man that needs a crutch, it sure ain't mine. Science does not, and will not EVER have ALL the answers to ALL the questions that crop up in life.. but yah know what, the data base is growing by leaps and bounds, the info keeps coming in, the big brains continue to chew the data. Maybe in the next 5,000 years science will have the answer to the biggie. I am certain of one thing.. it'll be science that'll either prove it or disprove it.

And my life is no less complete by not knowing the answer today.. and I sure as hell ain't gonna embrace ID over 'big bang' on the basis of 'since science can't explain it today, it must be ID'. I don't require a crutch to live my life, don't try and foist your prosthesis on me.
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Offline Seagoon

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And pigs will fly
« Reply #86 on: November 09, 2005, 03:55:24 PM »
Hi Sandman,

Quote
Originally posted by Sandman
faith    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (fth)

Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.
[/i]


Not to split hairs, but while other religions may be fine with the above as part of their definition of faith (illogical, lacking in evidence), neither I nor the majority of Reformed theologians would accept it as part of a viable definition of the Christian faith.

Nothing is worse than quoting yourself, so I hope you'll forgive me, but as part of an essay on the subject of faith I wrote the following:

Quote
"Faith - Saving faith, the means by which Christ's righteousness is imputed to us and thus the means by which we are reconciled to God, has been described by theologians as being composed of three dynamic elements; Notitia (knowledge), Assensus (theoretical assent), and Fiducia (trust or practical assent).

By Notitia we refer to our knowledge of our faith. In order for us to have true saving faith, the content of that faith, must also be true. If we are merely sincere in our faith, but that which we believe in is false, then our faith is also false. This principle can be clearly seen in the fact that the world is literally filled with people who strongly and sincerely believe in certain things. They have a faith, for instance, in what Islam or Mormonism teaches. But if (as I believe) the intellectual content of these religions is false, so too the faith of their believers is also counterfeit. To make the example all the more clear (and I hope here that I am not bursting any personal bubbles) I can have a sincere faith in the  Easter Bunny, but my faith is ultimately false because the content of my faith is untrue.
...
Christianity is not a religion of ignorance or superstition, it stands or falls on the validity of it's truth claims. The process of spreading the gospel involves more than merely the transmission of it's intellectual content, but it does not involve less."  [On Saving Faith ]


Paul makes this point very well when he said:

"And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up -- if in fact the dead do not rise. For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable." (1 Cor. 15:14-19)

Interestingly enough though, much of the content of Darwinian theory has been historically accepted without logical proof or material evidence. As Niles Eldridge, an invertebrate paleontologist put it:

"No wonder paleontologists shied away from evolution for so long. It never seems to happen. Assiduous collecting up cliff faces yield zigzags, minor oscillations, and the very occasional slight accumulation of change--over millions of years, at a rate too slow to account for all the prodigious change that has occurred in evolutionary history. When we do see the introduction of evolutionary novelty, it usually shows up with a bang, and often with no firm evidence that the fossils did not evolve elsewhere! Evolution cannot forever be going on somewhere else. Yet that's how the fossil record has struck many a forlorn paleontologist looking to learn something about evolution." [Niles Eldridge, The Great Debate at the High Table of Evolutionary Theory , p. 95]

But more on the faith of scientific materialists later...

- SEAGOON
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #87 on: November 09, 2005, 04:18:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
Nuke, again you dodge.. and then you muck rake.

Reconcile the two Einstein Qutoes I have above with 'Intelligent Design'.

Reconcile my "For my part, I aknowledge I can't comprehend the theory behind 'creation'.. on the other hand I can certainly accept that there's more than one possibility; and based on the thoughtful contemplation by the best brains ever fielded by humanity it's apparent that ID is just religious inspired tripe being foisted off as 'scientific theory'." with your:

 

You seem to think I've got to have an answer to the unknowable question in order to live my life... well, that may be YOUR circumstance, little man that needs a crutch, it sure ain't mine. Science does not, and will not EVER have ALL the answers to ALL the questions that crop up in life.. but yah know what, the data base is growing by leaps and bounds, the info keeps coming in, the big brains continue to chew the data. Maybe in the next 5,000 years science will have the answer to the biggie. I am certain of one thing.. it'll be science that'll either prove it or disprove it.

And my life is no less complete by not knowing the answer today.. and I sure as hell ain't gonna embrace ID over 'big bang' on the basis of 'since science can't explain it today, it must be ID'. I don't require a crutch to live my life, don't try and foist your prosthesis on me.


First of all, you seem frustrated and are attacking me personally. I have not once said anything about what you believe or how you should live your life.

I have not said anything about religion. The debate is about the origins of the universe and of life. In your quote, you have said that the idea of an intelligent creator is just religious tripe, so therefore you are only saying you have an open mind about it, when in reality you do not. That's what I get out of it.

No one is saying that anyone has the answers, I am saying that it's just as logical to view the universe as a product of an intelligent creator as it is to say it created itself out of nothing.

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #88 on: November 09, 2005, 04:41:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by NUKE
If you are saying that you believe the odds are not that great that the entire universe exploded out of nothing, formed our planet, formed a life-friendly envirinment, then life popped into existance, then it seems like you would  have no problem believing anything is possible, even an intelligent creator.


Unfortunately ... for the sake of your fingers and all that typing you did.... no, that's not what I'm saying.

Offline Gh0stFT

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And pigs will fly
« Reply #89 on: November 09, 2005, 04:43:04 PM »
Dinosaurs lived for billions of years on mother earth, compared to them
we humans exits just a fraction of a second and pigs will fly.
The statement below is true.
The statement above is false.